# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/181 "2015-10-05T13:23:07Z")
I think deep down we all know what **Linus** ’ real issue is: girls won’t have sex with him. Ergo, there must be some deep failing within society. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/182 "2015-10-05T14:25:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think deep down we all know what **Linus** ’ real issue is: girls won’t have sex with him. Ergo, there must be some deep failing within society. And I think deep down we all know that feminists are just fat, ugly and hairy and probably lesbians too. So they blame the patriarchy because they can’t get laid. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/183 "2015-10-05T15:16:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think deep down we all know what **Linus** ’ real issue is: girls won’t have sex with him. Ergo, there must be some deep failing within society. In his defense, I believe **LinusK** is a married man with at least one child. A stay at home dad at that even. For my own amusement I find it fun to speculate as to the dynamic of his relationship with his wife, his mother, his mother and father (when he was growing up), etc, that would cause him to become an MRA. I’m imagining a household right out of the sitcom “King of Queens”, where **LinusK** ’s wife is the ball busting character played by Leah Remini to his lovable dolt played by Kevin James. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/184 "2015-10-05T15:59:45Z")
… how the hell can a stay at home dad of all people be anti-feminist? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/185 "2015-10-05T17:31:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … how the hell can a stay at home dad of all people be anti-feminist? He stated the following earlier in this thread: > [@LinusK](#): > > For some people, staying home with their children is exactly what they want to do. You’re right, of course, that most people don’t have that luxury. > > And it is a luxury. But being with your chid also requires sacrifices. It may be sacrifices that you’re happy to make - I certainly was. But given his propensity for tortured logic, perhaps it doesn’t mean what I think it means. \ ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/186 "2015-10-05T20:56:51Z")
Seems the thread has deteriorated into ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/187 "2015-10-05T21:14:02Z")
You make it sound like this thread was once a font of productive discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/188 "2015-10-05T21:40:40Z")
Did we ever get a stated purpose for the thread? I asked twice, but didn’t get a reply. So really, we got 4 pages out of a check-out-this-link type post and a re-hash of earlier threads. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/189 "2015-10-05T21:50:21Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Did we ever get a stated purpose for the thread? I asked twice, but didn’t get a reply. So really, we got 4 pages out of a check-out-this-link type post and a re-hash of earlier threads. This is simply the latest installment of the long running LinusK v. feminism thread. Think of it as performance art. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/190 "2015-10-06T17:13:10Z")
> [@theR](#): > > No, they shouldn’t be grateful but they should stop accusing feminists of holding positions that most of them don’t actually hold. Most feminists believe, or pretend to believe, that domestic violence is a crime usually or virtually always committed by men against women. (Ex.: the Violence Against Women Act.) Feminists that acknowledge that women are approximately as likely to commit intimate partner violence as men are few and far between. > [@](#): > > She seems to be advocating a social experiment, starting with women but clearly says the arguments also apply to imprisoned men. Until we know if she believes the same should apply to men, color me unimpressed with your worry. Most prison reformers agree with her, except instead of saying “women” they don’t say anything about gender, which means they’re talking about 93% men and 7% women, or simply talking about men since that is often the default when it comes to prison and society at large. > > I’d be perfectly happy to criticize her position as being wrong and not in line with most feminists. > > Finally, I’m unconvinced by you pointing out single people with certain positions when compared to a group like NOW’s official position since NOW has 550 chapters of various sizes across the USA. It’s pretty clear which is the more mainstream feminist position about issues like domestic violence and incarceration. Why are men disproportionately likely to be imprisoned? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/191 "2015-10-06T17:20:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Not as predictable as you. > > You’ve been starting essentially the same thread over and over again for months. They’re so repetitive that you can’t tell the difference between them yourself, as we saw in your _last_ thread about the evils of feminism. Many of your posts consist largely of material cut and pasted from elsewhere, and while you occasionally manage to put things in your own words there’s never an original thought behind them. That’s presumably why you can’t answer direct questions: doing so would require you to think about something for yourself. You’re like a Tumblr feed of misogyny, only without the animated GIFs. Again: predictable. You are, as usual, attacking me rather than addressing the subject. Attacking a person is not a substitute for an actual debate. But I’ve told you that before, and I don’t suspect it’ll sink in this time any more than it has before. Also, as a side note, everything you said was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/192 "2015-10-06T17:21:10Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Most feminists believe, or pretend to believe, that domestic violence is a crime usually or virtually always committed by men against women. (Ex.: the Violence Against Women Act.) Feminists that acknowledge that women are approximately as likely to commit intimate partner violence as men are few and far between. Are these assertions based in any demonstrable fact? Or are they simply your (admittedly and demonstrably) biased opinions about what feminists think and believe? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/193 "2015-10-06T17:45:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Are these assertions based in any demonstrable fact? Or are they simply your (admittedly and demonstrably) biased opinions about what feminists think and believe? IIRC he’s found some statistics that suggest that women may hit or otherwise put hands on their male partners nearly as often as men do, but he totally ignores the fact that hospitalizations due to injury and deaths due to domestic violence are overwhelmingly caused by men. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/194 "2015-10-06T17:58:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IIRC he’s found some statistics that suggest that women may hit or otherwise put hands on their male partners nearly as often as men do, but he totally ignores the fact that hospitalizations due to injury and deaths due to domestic violence are overwhelmingly caused by men. Easy explanation. Broads hit like a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/195 "2015-10-06T18:19:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IIRC he’s found some statistics that suggest that women may hit or otherwise put hands on their male partners nearly as often as men do, but he totally ignores the fact that hospitalizations due to injury and deaths due to domestic violence are overwhelmingly caused by men. Plenty of people have “found” those numbers; they’ve been controversial for about 30 years. Which is to say that this information is coming straight from the same men’s rights wellspring from which all the rest is being drawn. Some studies do, for what it’s worth, suggest that there is a rough symmetry between the numbers of women in relationships who hit men and the numbers of men who hit women. What they neglect, in addition to the severity of the violence, which you already pointed out, is that by and large, “hitting” isn’t really what we’re primarily concerned with when we talk about domestic violence. Many many victims of domestic violence are terrorized for years without what most people would consider a domestic battery - the fear and control and intimidation tactics used by batterers are much more effective than a slap to the face in terms of maintaining a battering relationship. It could very well be the case that in a particular incident, the victim “hit” first. That doesn’t mean the victim was battering the batterer, who may have just flung dinner into the wall, went on a 20 minute tirade about what a shitty person the victim was, kicked the dog, and then threatened to rape the victim. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/196 "2015-10-06T18:40:34Z")
There’s a great debate [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdlVcjYYCbs), between Wendy McElroy and Jessica Valenti. McElroy addresses the topic of “rape culture” with a combination of passion and logic that’s masterful. Jessica Valenti… well not so much. She starts off by saying she’s “exhausted” of talking about “rape culture” because it’s existence is “not up for debate.” She then goes on to tell the “amazing” story of a woman named… [Emma Sulkowitz](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-didn-t-rape-her.html). Valenti’s had her part of the debate removed a couple of times, but you can currently find it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBsk1WzEdCA). (Scroll to about 20 minutes.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/197 "2015-10-06T19:32:34Z")
**iiandyiiii** , **Jimmy Chitwood** , I know the statistics on IPV, well, intimately. I’ve worked closely with those numbers, and with both victims and perpetrators of IPV. Men as well as women on both sides. I’m not asking **LinusK** to justify _those_ assertions, although I absolutely agree that they are incomplete and without context at best. No, I’m asking **LinusK** to respond to the framing clauses. See, he says: > [@LinusK](#): > > **Most feminists believe, or pretend to believe** , that domestic violence is a crime usually or virtually always committed by men against women. (Ex.: the Violence Against Women Act.) **Feminists that acknowledge** that women are approximately as likely to commit intimate partner violence as men **are few and far between.** Emphases mine. I want to know, **LinusK** , if you have any evidence to support your assertions that this is what “most feminists” believe. I mean, I’d hate for you to be attacking a strawman. Or, indeed, a strawwoman. What say, **LinusK**? Got some data? . ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/198 "2015-10-06T20:40:00Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s a great debate [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdlVcjYYCbs), between Wendy McElroy and Jessica Valenti. McElroy addresses the topic of “rape culture” with a combination of passion and logic that’s masterful. > > Jessica Valenti… well not so much. She starts off by saying she’s “exhausted” of talking about “rape culture” because it’s existence is “not up for debate.” She then goes on to tell the “amazing” story of a woman named… [Emma Sulkowitz](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-didn-t-rape-her.html). > > Valenti’s had her part of the debate removed a couple of times, but you can currently find it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBsk1WzEdCA). (Scroll to about 20 minutes.) Okay, **LinusK**. You owe me 30 minutes of my life for (foolishly) watching your linked videos. But before you pay up, you need to address **andros’s** (among others) questions using evidence that’s more than some randomly sourced anecdotal videos. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/199 "2015-10-06T20:56:41Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Let me ask you something: why do you think there are more men in prison than women? > > Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? > > Why do you think more little boys are diagnosed with ADHD, and drugged for their condition, than girls? > > Why do you think women usually get custody after a divorce? Why do men who \*do \* get custody get less court- ordered child support than women? Why do you think women - if they are ordered to pay it - pay less child support than men? > > Why do you think men die sooner than women? > > Why do women get lesser sentences than men, for the same crimes? > > Why do you think men who make the mistake of calling domestic abuse hotlines get referred to abuser programs? Or asked what they did to deserve it? Or simply get laughed at? > > Why do you think the California legislature passed a law that _defined_ domestic abuse as a crime - but only if it happened to a woman? > > And finally, why are women so afraid of bugs? There is so, so much here to dig into. Let’s start with a lesser known area. Could you shed some light on the relationship between female fear of bugs and the lack of a patriarchy? I think that’s what you were arguing. I would be particularly interested in any data you have that supports this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/200 "2015-10-06T21:18:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **iiandyiiii** , **Jimmy Chitwood** , I know the statistics on IPV, well, intimately. I’ve worked closely with those numbers, and with both victims and perpetrators of IPV. Men as well as women on both sides. > > I’m not asking **LinusK** to justify _those_ assertions, although I absolutely agree that they are incomplete and without context at best. No, I know. I wish you godspeed with that one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=11)