# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/241 "2015-10-08T20:08:32Z")
Yes, those were the days, my friends. _Those_ were the days… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/242 "2015-10-08T20:11:00Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > We’d live the life we choose > We’d fight and never lose Cause we were young, and sure to have our way. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/243 "2015-10-08T20:12:24Z")
Now, who’s up for a rousing chorus of, “Ochie Chorniye”? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/244 "2015-10-08T21:48:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay, **LinusK**. You owe me 30 minutes of my life for (foolishly) watching your linked videos. But before you pay up, you need to address **andros’s** (among others) questions using evidence that’s more than some randomly sourced anecdotal videos. I’m sorry to hear you thought your time was wasted. I found Wendy McElroy passionate, eloquent, fair-minded and intelligent. Not your kind of feminist? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/245 "2015-10-08T22:11:03Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I only vaguely know who that is. What’s she said? Karen Straughan is a woman who started a [blog](http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com) under the psuedonym girlwriteswhat. She moved on from that to posting videos on YouTube. From what I can tell, she’s moved on to public speaking now. Google her name or girlwriteswhat, and you’ll find her. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/246 "2015-10-09T03:06:02Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’ve found a cite called the [Feminist Majority Foundation](http://www.feminist.org/911/crisis_facts.html) (slogan: _“Equality Around The World”_) that states the following: > > [ul] > [li] Of those victimized by an intimate partner, 85% are women and 15% are men. In other words, women are 5 to 8 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner.[/li] > [li] Although many studies report that men and women use physical violence at equal rates within intimate relationships, this fails to take into account the nature of the violence and the level of fear and injury experienced by each party.[/li][/ul] > > These two statements are, obviously, rather contradictory. On the one hand, they say women are victimised nearly six times as often as men, and then on the other they note that “many studies” show that men and women use violence according to roughly equal rates. I don’t much care to unpick this contradiction, but I will note that the first claim is based on Justice Department statistics, which obviously don’t account for the enormous social pressure on male domestic abuse victims _not_ to report their victimisation. > > Regardless, the Feminist Majority Foundation brushes this aside by downplaying the fear that male abuse victims suffer (they refer to it as a “myth”). Besides, **LinusK** never said anything about fear anyway. He was just commenting on the raw numbers of female and male domestic abuse victims. Years ago, feminists pushed for “mandatory arrest” policies in domestic violence cases. They thought too many people were getting away with intimate partner violence. They were right, but not in the way they thought. Police started arresting women, where previously they’d have left without making an arrest. Now they’re pushing for “primary aggressor” policies, [where](http://www.stopvaw.org/determining_the_predominant_aggressor): > [@](#): > > The police must also look beyond the visual evidence and consider the context of the act of violence by identifying controlling behavior in the predominant aggressor and fear in the victim. Instead of looking at the evidence, police must consider “The height and weight of the parties”; “Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party”; and “Whether a party has a fearful demeanor.” So men, if your girlfriend hits you, try lose a lot of height and weight and strength before the police show up, and look as fearful as possible. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/247 "2015-10-09T05:06:19Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Now they’re pushing for “primary aggressor” policies, [where](http://www.stopvaw.org/determining_the_predominant_aggressor): > > Instead of looking at the evidence, police must consider “The height and weight of the parties”; “Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party”; and “Whether a party has a fearful demeanor.” According to your own cite: To determine the predominant aggressor, police must consider: ``` [ul] ``` [li]Offensive and defensive injuries[/li][li] The seriousness of injuries received by each party[/li][li] Threats made by a party against the other or a family member or a pet[/li][li] Whether a party acted in self-defense or in the defense of another[/li][li] The height and weight of the parties[/li][li] Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party[/li][li] Any history of domestic violence between the parties[/li][li] Prior convictions of assault[/li][li] Orders for protection that have been filed by a party[/li][li] Whether a party has a fearful demeanor[/li][li] Whether a party has a controlling demeanor[/li][li] Witness statements[/li][/ul] In addition: “Police must consider whether the injuries and the evidence corroborate the statements made by each party and by witnesses.” “The determination of the predominant aggressor, and the reasons for that determination, must be included in the police report.” Since you are a lawyer, surely you can explain why the police should not consider any of these things as part of their investigation, and how that is not considered evidence. Wouldn’t the police need to consider the same evidence to determine if the primary aggressor is a woman? What alternative are you suggesting? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/248 "2015-10-09T12:11:27Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m sorry to hear you thought your time was wasted. I found Wendy McElroy passionate, eloquent, fair-minded and intelligent. Not your kind of feminist? I found Wedny McElroy fair minded while a little angry. Jessica (Trigger Warning) Valenti was annoying but not entirely wrong. Both women described themselves as feminist. Which only serves to show that it’s a spectrum with opposing views on both ends. Here’s my problem with your OP and one you still have not addressed: Rape/Sexual Assault is a criminal issue. I assume as an attorney you do not disagree. Why are you attempting to politicize it as a feminist issue and then paint the majority of feminist with the same broad brush of misandry? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/249 "2015-10-09T13:47:29Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > For some people, staying home with their children is exactly what they want to do. You’re right, of course, that most people don’t have that luxury. > > > > And it is a luxury. But being with your chid also requires sacrifices. It may be sacrifices that you’re happy to make - I certainly was. > > > > But “having it all” is a myth. It is simply a fact of life that no one person is capable of being two places at once. > > > > If the child has two parents, that certainly makes things easier. In some cases, it may even mean there’s little or no real sacrifice at all. Perhaps one parent prefers to be with his or her children, rather than making money the family may not even really need. In other cases - where nobody’s making six figures - at least they can split up the sacrifices, in whatever way makes sense to them. > > > > I know MDs who are stay at home moms. Which I understand - if I had an MD, and a spouse who was willing to support me - I’d rather stay home with my child, than spend 60 hours a week poking around in people’s orifices. > > What does your preference have to do with feminism? Nothing. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that it’s wrong to choose to save lives rather than change diapers all day Not exactly. I’m generally not a judgmental person. We are forced to make decisions early in life, with little real-world experience. As we mature and grow and gain real-world knowledge and learn more about ourselves, often our priorities and preferences change. Plus what we were taught we were getting into may not be what we were told it was. If someone trains to be a doctor and decides later to stay at home with his or her kids, I’m not going to judge them. > [@](#): > > (see how spin works?)? No. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that everyone should make sacrifices to be a stay at home parent? No. I’m saying everyone who has children makes sacrifices. And I’ll add that those sacrifices are often rewarded, many times over. It’s my opinion that children benefit from close relationships with their parents - preferably both of them. But time spent with children is time not spent at work. That’s just how life works. > [@](#): > > If so, to what extent? I certainly am very glad I don’t have to choose between having a career and a family like so many women did before feminism. Heck, I am grateful to feminism in that I can have my career at all. (Even though I am making money that the family does not strictly speaking need – are you saying that it’s wrong somehow to have a job if you don’t need the money?) I don’t know if you have children, how old they are, or how much time they spend with their parents. In general, I’m not in the habit of judging what other people do with their children. It’s my opinion, though, that children benefit from spending time with their parents. Hypothetically, if two people have 60 hr a week jobs, they’re not spending much time with their children. That’s just how math works. > [@](#): > > “Having it all” means having a career and a family. You can define it however you like. My point is that time spent working is time spent away from your children. > [@](#): > > It does not mean simultaneously spending time on your career and your family 24/7, because that’s impossible, so being in two places at once is irrelevant. Being in two places at once is impossible. But not irrelevant. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > One other thing: your parents didn’t “deny” you an education. My parents didn’t pay a dime toward my education - or my siblings. Out of the six of us, all have at least a college degree, and three have advanced degrees as well. > > Lucky you for being born in the right country? I grew up in a third world country without a system of student loans and a very strict university entry system. If you or your family doesn’t supply the money, 90% of the time you don’t go. Grants are given to those with very very low family income, which my parents did not qualify for (they were maybe lower middle to middle class). Wages are low and there is no minimum wage, so putting oneself through school is out of the question. There is also no going back to college as an adult. > > It did turn out that I won a scholarship which was awarded to very few (roughly one in 20,000), came to the US for undergraduate, and now have a PhD. But the whole time while I was going up, my parents made it clear to me that they would not pay for my university education because I was a girl and that my purpose in life was to find a man and have children. Even when I was pursuing my PhD in a top university, I was still frequently told by my family this was a waste of time and I was wasting my prime husband-catching and baby-having years. Multiple people told me I would be unmarriageable – the worst fate imaginable – if I get a PhD. I am lucky to have been born in a 1st world country. All of us were. And generally, we take it for granted - that’s just human nature. People take for granted what they already have. It sounds like you were fortunate to come here too. Where are you from? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/250 "2015-10-09T16:30:13Z")
Seems to me, **LinusK** , that you lead a fairly charmed life. White, educated, financially stable, first world problems, etc… Yet, you keep grinding that axe against feminists? What’s your specific beef with them? Can you climb off that cross and express your objections in your own words, counselor? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/251 "2015-10-09T16:46:39Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Instead of looking at the evidence, police must consider “The height and weight of the parties”; “Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party”; and “Whether a party has a fearful demeanor.” > > So men, if your girlfriend hits you, try lose a lot of height and weight and strength before the police show up, and look as fearful as possible. Definitely male DV victims experience [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf). > [@](#): > > They determined she was the aggressor but said since I was a man it was silly to arrest her. > [@](#): > > They didn’t really listen to what I said. They assumed that all abusers are men and said that I must accept that I was the abuser. They ridiculed me for not leaving my wife, ignoring the issues about what I would need to do to protect my 6 children and care for them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/252 "2015-10-09T17:13:32Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Definitely male DV victims experience [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf). From the same study: > [@](#): > > Limitations and Future Research: > > The limitations of this study need to be considered in future research. First, we cannot assess the legitimacy of the accounts and reports of abuse and helpseeking in this study. Since the men were recruited via the Internet we have no way to confirm the legitimacy of their reports. Moreover, it is possible that some men, especially those recruited through men’s advocacy groups, may have “an axe to grind” and thus, reported false information. In addition, it is possible that such men would have been > more likely to have had negative helpseeking experiences and therefore, joined such a group. Which is not to say that IPV incidents against men by women don’t occure. They absolutely do. But that’s not what the OP is about and that’s not what anyone has tried to deny. Are you saying that feminists are saying that women are the only victims of IPV? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/253 "2015-10-09T17:24:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are you saying that feminists are saying that women are the only victims of IPV? Each feminist like everyone else has her/his opinion of the issue. I am not an expert on their opinions. I am just saying that men do face many forms of discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/254 "2015-10-10T09:18:43Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Each feminist like everyone else has her/his opinion of the issue. I am not an expert on their opinions. And what’s with that anyway? 99% of men are physical way stronger than the woman they’re in a relationship with. If a girl started to get violent on me in a way which could described as anything resembling abuse, I’d slap her till she stopped or at the very least physically restrain her. That’d be easy, not because I’m superman or anything, but because girls are fucking weak. I literally weight 2x the one I’m with now and I’m only average at 186cm/85kg, so no Klitschko or anything. 99% of women ought to be no more a threat to the average man than a 10yo child is. I suspect it’s because from what I’ve read on various forums, that you in the USA have a tendency to escalate really fast and involve the police in ridiculously trifling matters. It’s not domestic violence if a girl lash out a bit in frustration or shove you a bit, when both you and her are fully aware that she’d never be able to really hurt you in any way. Using the police to settle marital scores is really a very bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/255 "2015-10-10T15:31:36Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And what’s with that anyway? 99% of men are physical way stronger than the woman they’re in a relationship with. If a girl started to get violent on me in a way which could described as anything resembling abuse, I’d slap her till she stopped or at the very least physically restrain her. That’d be easy, not because I’m superman or anything, but because girls are fucking weak. I literally weight 2x the one I’m with now and I’m only average at 186cm/85kg, so no Klitschko or anything. 99% of women ought to be no more a threat to the average man than a 10yo child is. > > I suspect it’s because from what I’ve read on various forums, that you in the USA have a tendency to escalate really fast and involve the police in ridiculously trifling matters. It’s not domestic violence if a girl lash out a bit in frustration or shove you a bit, when both you and her are fully aware that she’d never be able to really hurt you in any way. Using the police to settle marital scores is really a very bad idea. It really is a bad idea, yet it happens all the time. And if you were in the US - and I don’t know where you live - you’d be making a very bad mistake if you did “slap her till she stopped.” If the police came, for whatever reason, you’d be going to jail. Here are some of the consequences you’d face - and this is _before_ getting any kind of trial: [ul] [li]Jail (and yes, jail really sucks)[/li] [li]Bond: cost is variable. Could be as much as $5000, or as little as $40.[/li] [li]Defense attorney: again, variable. Let’s say $1000 - $5000.[/li] [li]Automatic protective order (ordinarily, it prevents you from going back to your own home)[/li] [li]GPS: ~ $350/mo. It’s an electronic ankle bracelet, that needs to be continually charged. It’s 24/7, bulky and hard to hide.[/li] [li]Mandatory classes: Batterer’s Intervention programs can last up to 52 weeks, and cost $1000+[/li] [li]Losing your job: depending on your job, missing work (because you’re in jail) can get you fired. Alternatively, if your employer out you’ve been arrested for domestic violence, you could be fired.[/li][/ul] Again, those are consequences you face _before_ trial. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/256 "2015-10-10T16:12:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It really is a bad idea, yet it happens all the time. > > And if you were in the US - and I don’t know where you live - you’d be making a very bad mistake if you did “slap her till she stopped.” Well I’m in Europe, and it’d be self defense in the case I lined up. Don’t really throw people for jail for such cases anyway, at least in Denmark. But it has never happened because I’ve never had a woman hit me with the intent to do actual damage. And I’ve never heard of anybody else it happened to either. As far as I know, it’s not really a thing which happens to a statistical relevant degree, but I could of course be mistaken. I’m more confused how it would take place in the first place, a girl half your size, weaker, slower and physical fragile. The only scenario where she could harm you is if you let her and why would you – or of course if weapons were involved, but then we’re in a whole other territory. So anyway, that’s the reason I’d think those stats are not reflecting things as they happen in the real world. I met a Russian guy in Spain the other month. He had been married to an American girl. They had a row, don’t know, but wouldn’t be surprised if he’d hit her – because Russian. And she called the police, which was perhaps quite reasonable. But the mindboggling thing was that she fully expected them to patch up and go on as a couple as if nothing of particular importance had happened. How does that even compute? You call the police on your husband – in which world is this something you can come back from and not an absolute last choice and a complete deal breaker? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/257 "2015-10-10T20:30:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > ? You call the police on your husband – in which world is this something you can come back from and not an absolute last choice and a complete deal breaker? Makes about as much sense as hitting your wife, and expecting her to come back to you. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/258 "2015-10-10T20:50:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Makes about as much sense as hitting your wife, and expecting her to come back to you. Yes well that’s stupid of her but happens all the time. I just kinda suspect that Americans have a rather alien and difficult to understand relationship with the police and juridical system and such, which screws up stats made on the basis of police reports. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/259 "2015-10-10T23:23:02Z")
US laws are an order of magnitude harsher then European laws. They are as harsh as Soviet laws under Stalin. In USA a woman can abuse a man because in most cases a man would not risk a legal penalty for defending himself. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/260 "2015-10-10T23:37:34Z")
I also question the idea that because women are on average physically less strong than men that they are somehow weak _(ie: that a woman couldn’t possibly be a threat to a man)_. I grew up on a farm and my female relatives and friends were perfectly capable of contributing to hard physical farmwork. And no they weren’t ‘butch’ _(not that there’s anything wrong with that)_, just average people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=14)