# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/261 "2015-10-11T14:20:08Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Well I’m in Europe, and it’d be self defense in the case I lined up. Don’t really throw people for jail for such cases anyway, at least in Denmark. But it has never happened because I’ve never had a woman hit me with the intent to do actual damage. And I’ve never heard of anybody else it happened to either. As far as I know, it’s not really a thing which happens to a statistical relevant degree, but I could of course be mistaken. I’m more confused how it would take place in the first place, a girl half your size, weaker, slower and physical fragile. The only scenario where she could harm you is if you let her and why would you – or of course if weapons were involved, but then we’re in a whole other territory. So anyway, that’s the reason I’d think those stats are not reflecting things as they happen in the real world. > > I met a Russian guy in Spain the other month. He had been married to an American girl. They had a row, don’t know, but wouldn’t be surprised if he’d hit her – because Russian. And she called the police, which was perhaps quite reasonable. But the mindboggling thing was that she fully expected them to patch up and go on as a couple as if nothing of particular importance had happened. How does that even compute? You call the police on your husband – in which world is this something you can come back from and not an absolute last choice and a complete deal breaker? I tell every person who comes in that if someone hits you, or calls the police on you, the relationship is over. But they rarely listen. The normal case is when the alleged victim calls to get me to get the defendant out of jail and/or for representation. For example, a someone calls to get his or her girlfriend/boyfriend out of jail - and pays for it - and has huge bloody claw marks on his/her face. The second time he’s got a black eye and a bloody nose, and still pays to get her out. Only then they slap in-jail GPS on her, so she can’t go near him. That’s when the relationship finally ends. > [@](#): > > Well I’m in Europe, and it’d be self defense in the case I lined up. I can’t speak to Europe. But here, if you slapped a woman several times, and that’s the story the police heard, you’d be going to jail. It might well be self-defense. But that’s an argument you’d have to make at trial, which is why I outlined the consequences _before you ever get to trial._ The general cultural paradigm in the US is if you’re a man, _you never hit a woman._ Some women take advantage of that: they know they can hit without getting hit back. You can see it here: [Have You Ever Beat Up A Boyfriend? Cause, Uh, We Have](http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have). > [@](#): > > **According to a study of relationships that engage in nonreciprocal violence, a whopping 70% are perpetrated by women.** So basically that means that girls are beating up their BFs and husbands and the dudes aren’t fighting back. With Amy Winehouse busting open a can of whupass on her husband last week, we decided to conduct an informal survey of the Jezebels to see who’s gotten violent with their men. After reviewing the answers, let’s just say that it’d be wise to never ever fuck with us… > > One Jezebel got into it with a dude while they were breaking up, while another Jez went nuts on her guy and began violently shoving him. One of your editors heard her boyfriend flirting on the phone with another girl, so she slapped the phone out of his hands and hit him in the face and neck… “partially open handed.” Another editor slapped a guy when “he told me he thought he had breast cancer.” (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.) And lastly, one Jez punched a steady in the face and broke his glasses. He had discovered a sex story she was writing about another dude on her laptop, so he picked it up and threw it. And that’s when she socked him. He was, uh, totally asking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/262 "2015-10-11T17:45:16Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You can see it here: Have You Ever Beat Up A Boyfriend? Cause, Uh, We Have. Wow…Holy fuck. The tone of that article, and especially its comments, are just… Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/263 "2015-10-11T17:57:53Z")
I’m just interjecting this FWIW: please, don’t hit your kids. It conditions them into thinking violence is acceptable to inflict and endure in their later relationships. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/264 "2015-10-12T23:57:34Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I’m just interjecting this FWIW: please, don’t hit your kids. It conditions them into thinking violence is acceptable to inflict and endure in their later relationships. I agree 100%. And I’d add that kids who grow up with parent who hit each other later reenact that same dynamic themselves. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/265 "2015-10-13T01:02:51Z")
> [@camille](#): > > According to your own cite: > To determine the predominant aggressor, police must consider: > > ``` > [ul] > > ``` > > [li]Offensive and defensive injuries[/li][li] The seriousness of injuries received by each party[/li][li] Threats made by a party against the other or a family member or a pet[/li][li] Whether a party acted in self-defense or in the defense of another[/li][li] The height and weight of the parties[/li][li] Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party[/li][li] Any history of domestic violence between the parties[/li][li] Prior convictions of assault[/li][li] Orders for protection that have been filed by a party[/li][li] Whether a party has a fearful demeanor[/li][li] Whether a party has a controlling demeanor[/li][li] Witness statements[/li][/ul] > > In addition: > “Police must consider whether the injuries and the evidence corroborate the statements made by each party and by witnesses.” > > “The determination of the predominant aggressor, and the reasons for that determination, must be included in the police report.” > Since you are a lawyer, surely you can explain why the police should not consider any of these things as part of their investigation, and how that is not considered evidence. > > Wouldn’t the police need to consider the same evidence to determine if the primary aggressor is a woman? > > What alternative are you suggesting? The “predominant aggressor” approach comes from the “[Duluth model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model)”: > [@](#): > > The Duluth Model or Domestic Abuse Intervention Project is a program developed to reduce domestic violence against women. It is named after Duluth, Minnesota, the city where it was developed.[1] The program was largely founded by Ellen Pence and Michael Paymar.[1] > > As of 2006, the Duluth Model is the most common batterer intervention program used in the United States.[2] It is based in feminist theory positing that “domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners”.[2] It is based, in other words, on theory, not evidence. The Duluth model created the “Power and Control” wheel, which you can see [here](http://www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PowerandControl.pdf). What you might notice is that the “wheel” is entirely gendered: every victimizer is male; every victim is female. The Duluth model website explains the reasoning [here](http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/wheels.html): > [@](#): > > **Why isn’t the Power and Control Wheel gender neutral?** > The Power and Control Wheel represents the lived experience of women who live with a man who beats them. It does not attempt to give a broad understanding of all violence in the home or community but instead offers a more precise explanation of the tactics men use to batter women. We keep our focus on women’s experience because the battering of women by men continues to be a significant social problem–men commit 86 to 97 percent of all criminal assaults and women are killed 3.5 times more often than men in domestic homicides1. Two things to notice about the explanation: 1.) it uses “criminal assaults” rather than intimate partner violence, or domestic violence, to obtain the 86% to 97% figure. (While also ignoring the fact that men are far more likely to be victims of criminal assaults than women.) 2.) It says that women are killed 3.5 times more often than men in domestic homicides. But the number it uses an FBI report that says 1181 females and 329 males were killed by their intimate partners. To put that in perspective, if there are 160 million women in the US - which is approximately right - the chance of being killed by a male intimate partner is 0.000007. 77.4 percent of all homicide victims are male, [according to the FBI](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain). Which brings me to predominant aggressor policies: To determine the predominant aggressor, police must consider: [ol] [li]Offensive and defensive injuries[/li][li]The seriousness of injuries received by each party[/li][li]Threats made by a party against the other or a family member or a pet[/li][li]Whether a party acted in self-defense or in the defense of another[/li][li]The height and weight of the parties[/li][li]Which party has the potential to seriously injure the other party[/li][li]Any history of domestic violence between the parties[/li][li]Prior convictions of assault[/li][li]Orders for protection that have been filed by a party[/li][li]Whether a party has a fearful demeanor[/li][li]Whether a party has a controlling demeanor[/li][li]Witness statements[/li][/ol] One, four and 12 are fine. The height and weight of the parties is irrelevant. Are you going to arrest somebody because she’s fat? Because he’s tall? Seriously? Which party “has the potential to seriously injure the other party,” is ridiculous. Anybody has the “potential” to seriously injure somebody else. All you need is a weapon. (Or someone who won’t fight back.) It’s not whether someone has the “potential” to harm someone: it’s _whether they actually harmed them._ “Fearful demeanor” is also ridiculous. Someone could have a fearful demeanor because he or she is afraid they’re about to go to jail; which in turn could indicate they were in fact the guilty party. Some people are afraid of bugs. Others jump out of airplanes. Whether someone is “fearful” has more to do with his or her personality than it does with who is guilty. Using prior allegations or convictions is just “the usual suspects” routine. The point of an investigation is to determine who did it _this_ time. Not who did it in the past. As a practical example, suppose a woman is convicted family violence. Should she be fearful of ever calling the police again, because of her past? Anyway, I don’t have time to go through all of them. Suffice it to say, that when the police arrive at a potential domestic assault, they should determine, from the actual evidence, who actually committed the assault(s). Not who’s bigger or taller or more fearful. The “primary aggressor” policy is a not-so-subtle way of telling police: _arrest the man._ Something they’re predisposed to do anyway. When you have statistics that show that women are as likely to resort to violence in intimate relationships as men, and men are overwhelmingly the ones getting arrested and convicted, something is wrong. “Primary aggressor” policies are just a way to break a system more than it’s already broken. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/266 "2015-10-13T04:06:55Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > When you have statistics that show that women are as likely to resort to violence in intimate relationships as men, and men are overwhelmingly the ones getting arrested and convicted, something is wrong. “Primary aggressor” policies are just a way to break a system more than it’s already broken. No. You are once again conflating two disparate situations to create a false equivalence. The crucial difference between woman aggressor violence and man aggressor violence is order of magnitude. You are trying to compare minor violence like shoving, pushing, and hitting that leaves no injury, with violence that causes major injury or death. \*\*Men are overwhelmingly the ones getting arrested and convicted because men are overwhelmingly the ones inflicting serious injuries or killing their partner. \*\* Continuing to post your cut and paste Karen Straughan talking points doesn’t make that fact go away. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/267 "2015-10-15T02:38:05Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No. You are once again conflating two disparate situations to create a false equivalence. The crucial difference between woman aggressor violence and man aggressor violence is order of magnitude. You are trying to compare minor violence like shoving, pushing, and hitting that leaves no injury, with violence that causes major injury or death. > > \*\*Men are overwhelmingly the ones getting arrested and convicted because men are overwhelmingly the ones inflicting serious injuries or killing their partner. \*\* > > Continuing to post your cut and paste Karen Straughan talking points doesn’t make that fact go away. The internet hates you. According to the [NISVS, National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf), in the last 12 months: The number of women slapped, pushed or shoved was 4,322,000 (3.6%) vs. 5,066,000 (4.5%) men. The number of women who experienced “any severe physical violence,” including hair pulling, hit or kicked, among other things, was 4,028,000, or 2.7%. The number of men was 2,266,000, or 2.0%. So men were more likely to experience intimate partner violence overall, but women were more likely to experience “any severe physical violence,” including hair pulling. Pages 44 & 45. In addition, according to [National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health](http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176%2Fpn.42.15.0031a), women were the perpetuators of violence in 70.7% of relationships where the violence was non-reciprocal. [According to the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm?s_cid=ss6308a1_e), 2.3% of women and 2.1% of men had been victims of “severe physical violence by an intimate partner” in the 12 months. According to [US Dept. of Justice statistics](http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4801), “About 4% of females and 8% of males who were victimized by an intimate partner were shot at, stabbed, or hit with a weapon in 2002–11.” I know the statistics are all over the place. this might be part of the reason: > [@](#): > > When violence between intimate partners emerged as a recognizable issue in our society in the mid-1970s (Straus, Gelles, & Steinmetz, 1981; Walker, 1979), empirical knowledge of this social, psychological, and legal phenomenon was very limited. As advocates for women organized shelters across the nation to provide safety and assistance for abused women, clinical information emerged that described patterns of severe physical and emotional abuse. The victims were most notably described by Walker (1979) and others as “battered women,” and the male perpetrators were labeled “batterers.” This early and important recognition and conceptualization of intimate partner violence has guided policy, law, education, and interventions to date. The term “domestic violence” was adopted by women’s advocates to emphasize the risk to women within their own family and household, and over time the term became synonymous with battering. Family sociologists also studied violence in families and between intimate partners in the 1970s and 1980s, typically in large nationally representative samples, and this information diverged significantly from shelter, hospital, and police data with respect to incidence, perpetrators, severity, and context. In particular, large-scale studies seemed to indicate that women were as violent as men in intimate relationships (Archer, 2000). Domestic violence advocates and service providers largely ignored or strongly rejected these studies because they were so at odds with their experiences in the shelters, hospitals, and courts. Advocates also feared that what they viewed as misinformation (that women were as violent as men) would dilute society’s focus on and funding of services and education for battered women (Pleck, Pleck, Grossman, & Bart, 1978). Thus, until recently, the two groups most concerned with intimate partner violence, feminist activists/practitioners and family sociologists, have rarely intersected, and misunderstanding and acrimonious debate have interfered with a more constructive and unified approach to what remains a serious societal problem for intimate partners and their children. - [DIFFERENTIATION AMONG TYPES OF INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE: RESEARCH UPDATE AND IMPLICATIONS FOR INTERVENTIONS](http://ocadvsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Differentiation-Among-Types-of-Intimate-Partner-Violence.pdf) Statistics can be manipulated, particularly if you have a ideological commitment, like the people behind the Duluth Model. > [@](#): > > **Why isn’t the Power and Control Wheel gender neutral?** > The Power and Control Wheel represents the lived experience of women who live with a man who beats them. It does not attempt to give a broad understanding of all violence in the home or community but instead offers a more precise explanation of the tactics men use to batter women. We keep our focus on women’s experience because the battering of women by men continues to be a significant social problem–men commit 86 to 97 percent of all criminal assaults and women are killed 3.5 times more often than men in domestic homicides1. > [@](#): > > A community using the Duluth Model approach… Prioritizes the voices and experiences of women who experience battering in the creation of those policies and procedures… Believes that battering is a pattern of actions used to intentionally control or dominate an intimate partner and actively works to change societal conditions that support men’s use of tactics of power and control over women. [Link](http://www.theduluthmodel.org/about/). Interestingly, programs developed under the Duluth Mode (based in feminist theory positing that “domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners”) have questionable success, at least according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model). > [@](#): > > A 2003 study conducted by the U.S. National Institute of Justice found the Duluth Model to have “little or no effect.” So, why not go back to putting your comments in **bold** , since that makes them true. Also, don’t forget to add an ad hominem or two, since that makes your case especially strong. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/268 "2015-10-15T04:49:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > According to the NISVS, National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey Your cites from that linked source don’t seem very representative of the information in that linked source. Some other things the source says: > [@](#): > > Nearly 1 in 3 women (30.3%) in the United States has been slapped, pushed or shoved by an intimate partner at some point in her lifetime. This translates to approximately 36.2 million women in the United States. An estimated 3.6%, or approximately 4.3 million women, reported experiencing these behaviors in the 12 months prior to taking the survey […] > Approximately 1 in 4 women in the United States (24.3%) has experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime, translating to nearly 29 million women. An estimated 17.2% of women have been slammed against something by a partner, 14.2% have been hit with a fist or something hard, and 11.2% reported that they have been beaten by an intimate partner in their lifetime. An estimated 2.7%, or approximately 3.2 million women, reported experiencing severe physical violence by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey. [p. 43] […] > > Approximately 1 in 4 men in the United States (25.7% or about 29 million) has been slapped, pushed or shoved by an intimate partner in his lifetime, and 4.5% or approxi- mately 5 million men, reported experiencing these behaviors in the 12 months prior to taking the survey […] > Nearly 1 in 7 men in the United States (13.8% or approximately 15.6 million) has experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner in his lifetime. About 9.4% of men have been hit with a fist or something hard by an intimate partner, 4.3% reported being kicked, and less than 3% reported each of the other forms of severe violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Two percent of men (approximately 2.3 million men) reported experiencing severe physical violence by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey. [p. 44] […] > > Nearly 3 in 10 women in the United States (28.8% or approximately 34.2 million) have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner and reported at least one measured impact related to experiencing these or other forms of violent behavior in that relationship [p. 54] […] > > Approximately 1 in 10 men in the United States (9.9% or an estimated 11.2 million) has experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner and reported at least one measured impact related to these or other forms of violent behavior in that > relationship [p. 55] […] So overall, women are more likely to be victims of both non-severe and severe intimate partner violence. Mind you, I’m not denying that intimate partner violence by women is criminal and unacceptable. Nor do I disagree that many women who engage in IPV are taking advantage of the cultural prohibition against men hitting women. I’m just pointing out that in general, according to the data you cite, women are more likely to be IPV victims than men, and women are at higher risk for more severe forms of IPV than men. Also, if you take a look at Table 1 in [this report](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775776/) that breaks down IPV prevalence by same-sex vs. opposite relationship, it appears that while men and women are about equally likely to be victims of physical IPV from same-sex partners, the disparity in opposite-sex relationships is much greater. There are significantly more men inflicting physical violence on female partners than women inflicting physical violence on male partners. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/269 "2015-10-15T13:24:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Interestingly, programs developed under the Duluth Mode (based in feminist theory positing that “domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners”) have questionable success, at least according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model) > > > [@](#): > > > > A 2003 study conducted by the U.S. National Institute of Justice found the Duluth Model to have “little or no effect.” > > So, why not go back to putting your comments in **bold** , since that makes them true. Non-weaselly members of the board, should they accidentally stumble upon and read this post against their better judgment, would be well served to follow the above link and read the sentences immediately before and immediately after the weaselly nonsense provided above. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/270 "2015-10-15T16:54:43Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Non-weaselly members of the board, should they accidentally stumble upon and read this post against their better judgment, would be well served to follow the above link and read the sentences immediately before and immediately after the weaselly nonsense provided above. Let’s just cut out the weasling entirely and go for maximal info, shall we? > [@](#): > > A U.S. study published in 2002 sponsored by the federal government found that batterers who complete programs based on the “Duluth Model,” are less likely to repeat acts of domestic violence than those who do not complete any batterers intervention program."[9] > > A 2003 study conducted by the U.S. National Institute of Justice found the Duluth Model to have “little or no effect.”[10] > > A 2005 study led by Larry Bennett, a professor of social work at the University of Illinois at Chicago and an expert on batterer intervention programs, found that of the 30 batterer intervention programs in Cook County, Illinois, 15 percent of batterers who completed the programs were rearrested for domestic violence, compared with 37 percent of those who dropped out of the programs.[9] However, Bennett said the studies are largely meaningless because they lacked a proper control group.[9] He added that participants who complete domestic violence programs are likely to be more motivated than others to improve behavior and would be less inclined to offend again.[9] > > A 2011 review of the effectiveness of batterers intervention programs (BIP) (primarily Duluth Model) found that “there is no solid empirical evidence for either the effectiveness or relative superiority of any of the current group interventions,” and that “the more rigorous the methodology of evaluation studies, the less encouraging their findings.”[11] That is, as BIPs in general, and Duluth Model programs in particular are subject to increasingly rigorous review, their success rate approaches zero. I’m really not seeing the quoted bit as an inaccurate summary. Based on the analogous models for AA, where the most motivated to change their behavior do a whole bunch of things which don’t necessarily affect the behavior, we don’t see evidence of effectiveness for the Duluth model. Does this really matter, though? Is the effectiveness of the Duluth model something that anyone here is really invested in demonstrating? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/271 "2015-10-15T17:16:27Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Does this really matter, though? Is the effectiveness of the Duluth model something that anyone here is really invested in demonstrating? 'Course not. It’s a one sided conversation on the subject in typical OP fashion: Witness using cherry picked sources; Ignore questions; Move the goalposts; Witness some more. Tedious and transparent. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/272 "2015-10-16T00:04:20Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > When you have statistics that show that women are as likely to resort to violence in intimate relationships as men, and men are overwhelmingly the ones getting arrested and convicted, something is wrong. “Primary aggressor” policies are just a way to break a system more than it’s already broken. I don’t see why ‘something is wrong’. Men are stronger than women, they can do much more physical damage, so it makes sense we should have a much stronger legal and cultural taboo about men using force on women than vice versa. If a woman hits her domestic partner, he can just walk away. The same is not true in reverse. Not all violence is equal. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/273 "2015-10-16T04:30:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Men are stronger than women, they can do much more physical damage, so it makes sense we should have a much stronger legal and cultural taboo about men using force on women than vice versa. If a woman hits her domestic partner, he can just walk away. The same is not true in reverse. That’s a **way** oversimplistic take on crimes of domestic physical violence. Women are not toddlers whose physical ability to inflict damage is negligible compared to men’s. Most women can indeed do severe physical damage to most men if they try, and “just walking away” isn’t always an option for their victims. It’s true that on average, women who physically assault a domestic partner do less damage than men do, either because they’re not trying as hard or because it’s easier for their victims to restrain them. But the law already takes into account the severity of the damage in judging and punishing the crime. We certainly don’t need to second-guess that assessment with arbitrary gender-based criteria. Nor should women physically assaulting men be any more socially acceptable than vice versa. Women are just as capable of self-restraint and intelligent conflict resolution as men are. Absent a self-defense or defense-of-others situation, there is absolutely no valid reason for a woman to hit a man. This sort of deeply entrenched societal double standard is just one of the many reasons why we still need feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/274 "2015-10-16T08:52:03Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t see why ‘something is wrong’. > > Men are stronger than women, they can do much more physical damage, so it makes sense we should have a much stronger legal and cultural taboo about men using force on women than vice versa. If a woman hits her domestic partner, he can just walk away. The same is not true in reverse. > > Not all violence is equal. What if the woman uses a weapon, which in a domestic setting are readily at hand? And a lot comes down to personality, an aggressive woman of average size can certainly be a greater threat to a passive man of average size. And again because women are less physically strong than men doesn’t make them _weak_. > [@Kimstu](#): > > This sort of deeply entrenched societal double standard is just one of the many reasons why we still need feminism. Its also one of the reasons why I imagine men are reluctant to report domestic violence, as per Rune’s comments above where he states that a woman couldn’t possibly be a threat to a man. I just don’t see the need to downplay violence against men, we can recognise women are more often the victims without doing that. But again I wonder how much violence against men is under-reported by the victims. I find this kind of interesting because I remember when I was a teenager being sat down by my mum and told never to accept violence from a partner, even one act of abuse is too much and I should walk away from the relationship. She also sat my brother down at the same time and even at that age he was large and well built enough that he looked like he could tear a tractor apart with his bare hands. My mum certainly didn’t think he couldn’t be hurt or injured by a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/275 "2015-10-16T10:54:39Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > According to a study of relationships that engage in nonreciprocal violence, a whopping 70% are perpetrated by women. I don’t understand this one: _“Another editor slapped a guy when “he told me he thought he had breast cancer.” (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)”_. What’s the funny part? Some men, although very few, do get breast cancer. Anyway, jail or no jail, I’d have hit her so hard. She must have some astronomic feeling of entitlement and privilege to believe she can hit a man for no reason without him hitting back. > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > What if the woman uses a weapon, which in a domestic setting are readily at hand? And a lot comes down to personality, an aggressive woman of average size can certainly be a greater threat to a passive man of average size. > > And again because women are less physically strong than men doesn’t make them _weak_. Well that’s the definition of weak – being less strong. And I was mostly talking from personal experience, because I couldn’t picture the scenario in my mind, because I hadn’t considered he wouldn’t fight back. Like I was with a girl last year. She was nice, but one day we went for a walk in an orchard because I wanted to check out some olive trees, and turns out she couldn’t jump down a dirt slope so we had to take a detour. Then I was with another for a while, she was taller, like 178cm, I liked her so one day I took her to the gym and she couldn’t bench press the barbell. Now I’m with another, she’s tiny, around 158/40kg and can’t really lift her own 20kg suitcase for more than a few steps, whereas I can pick her up like she’s a toy. The thought that she could physically harm me is just silly – she’d have to first find a chair to stand on to be able to reach my head. They are all regular slim girls in the early to mid 20s. The average woman is about as strong [as an average 11-12yo boy](https://symmetricstrength.com/standards#/), and it’s not just strength, it’s just as much that they’re slow, fragile and small. And 12yo boys aren’t in general able to beat up grown men. Of course if the man insists on not fighting back, or at least restrain her, as Linus writes, then she can do harm. Also if weapons are involved I don’t classify it as domestic abuse, but as assault. Psychological abuse though, that’s another matter entirely. Also I did read a stat somewhere which showed that lesbian relationships were by far the ones most likely to be abusive, and gay the least likely. Heterosexual somewhere in-between. There’s a direct relationship between the number of women in the relationship and the amount of abuse. Correlation or causation. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/276 "2015-10-16T13:19:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The average woman is about as strong [as an average 11-12yo boy](https://symmetricstrength.com/standards#/), and it’s not just strength, it’s just as much that they’re slow, fragile and small. And 12yo boys aren’t in general able to beat up grown men. Yes. This is precisely the reason why we shouldn’t tolerate men using force on their (female) domestic partners, even in “self defence”. If a man and a 12 year old bot got in a fight, and it became clear that the 12 year old ‘started it’, I wouldn’t accept nonsense excuses like “I had to slap him until he stopped”. Because adult men are stronger than 12 year olds, we consider it a much bigger deal for adults to hit 12 year olds than the other way round. Also, the fact that women are ‘slower’ than men, as you mention (I was just average as a runner in high school, but I could still outrun most women runners), means men can just, you know, _escape_ if they get attacked, whereas women can’t. For the record, I weigh much, much less than the average man, and I like heavier women so the women I date are usually heavier than me. Because of the difference in body composition though, even most women that are heavier than me couldn’t do me serious harm. This is why if I was on a jury and you said something like “I slapped her until she stopped attacking me” or “she started it and I hit her back”, I would find you the guilty party, not her. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/277 "2015-10-16T15:16:50Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > I’m really not seeing the quoted bit as an inaccurate summary. Based on the analogous models for AA, where the most motivated to change their behavior do a whole bunch of things which don’t necessarily affect the behavior, we don’t see evidence of effectiveness for the Duluth model. > > Does this really matter, though? Is the effectiveness of the Duluth model something that anyone here is really invested in demonstrating? … I don’t know. Did anyone bring it up? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/278 "2015-10-16T18:49:09Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > According to the [NISVS, National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf), in the last 12 months: > > The number of women slapped, pushed or shoved was 4,322,000 (3.6%) vs. 5,066,000 (4.5%) men. > The number of women who experienced “any severe physical violence,” including hair pulling, hit or kicked, among other things, was 4,028,000, or 2.7%. The number of men was 2,266,000, or 2.0%. > So men were more likely to experience intimate partner violence overall, but women were more likely to experience “any severe physical violence,” including hair pulling. Pages 44 & 45. > > In addition, according to [National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health](http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176%2Fpn.42.15.0031a), women were the perpetuators of violence in 70.7% of relationships where the violence was non-reciprocal. > > [According to the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm?s_cid=ss6308a1_e), 2.3% of women and 2.1% of men had been victims of “severe physical violence by an intimate partner” in the 12 months. > > According to [US Dept. of Justice statistics](http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4801), “About 4% of females and 8% of males who were victimized by an intimate partner were shot at, stabbed, or hit with a weapon in 2002–11.” Very interesting data. Unfortunately many women and some men [approve severe abuse of men](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=767060). I am not an expert on these issues, but I am grateful to those who educate the public about these abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/279 "2015-10-16T18:58:17Z")
“Many”? Other than the two random people you quoted in that thread? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/280 "2015-10-16T18:58:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Yes. This is precisely the reason why we shouldn’t tolerate men using force on their (female) domestic partners, even in “self defence”. If a man and a 12 year old bot got in a fight, and it became clear that the 12 year old ‘started it’, I wouldn’t accept nonsense excuses like “I had to slap him until he stopped”. Because adult men are stronger than 12 year olds, we consider it a much bigger deal for adults to hit 12 year olds than the other way round. No. We give kids a break because they’re kids. A grown woman trying to do real damage do not deserve special consideration. In for a penny in for a pounding. It’s just that in my experience women never do that. Likely partially due to them knowing they don’t stand a chance. But it seems my personal experience could be wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=15)