# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/281 "2015-10-16T19:10:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And what’s with that anyway? 99% of men are physical way stronger than the woman they’re in a relationship with. If a girl started to get violent on me in a way which could described as anything resembling abuse, I’d slap her till she stopped or at the very least physically restrain her. Exceptionally stupid move. It gets YOU arrested. Yes, the police will take her word over yours. I was violently and viciously assaulted in my sleep by my ex-wife on three occasions before filing an order for protection. I made no move to reply in kind or subdue her, knowing that any mark on her was exactly what she wanted in order to prove to the world that her lies about me were in fact true. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/282 "2015-10-16T19:22:42Z")
> [@Hector St. Clare](#): > > For the record, I weigh much, much less than the average man, and I like heavier women so the women I date are usually heavier than me. Because of the difference in body composition though, even most women that are heavier than me couldn’t do me serious harm. This is why if I was on a jury and you said something like “I slapped her until she stopped attacking me” or “she started it and I hit her back”, I would find you the guilty party, not her. Just out of curiosity, would you extend that philosophy to adult male on adult male violence? If you, as a man who weighs much less than the average man, decided to walk up to a professional weightlifter and punch him full in the face, should he hit you back or not? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/283 "2015-10-16T20:10:29Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Just out of curiosity, would you extend that philosophy to adult male on adult male violence? If you, as a man who weighs much less than the average man, decided to walk up to a professional weightlifter and punch him full in the face, should he hit you back or not? This isn’t about a fight between a fly-weight and a heavy-weight. Fuck me, chivalry really is dead. :smack: But if you want to know what should happen in that situation, it’s simple. The weightlifter, should be secure enough in the knowledge that he can knock this much small guy’s head off. Therefore restrain himself from doing so and simply offer enough resistance to avoid further injury while controlling the attacker. This has always been part of any martial arts training I’ve been a part of. The more experienced and larger fighter has the responsibility to defend himself and not seriously injure the lesser opponent simply because he has the ability to do so. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/284 "2015-10-16T22:08:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This sort of deeply entrenched societal double standard is just one of the many reasons why we still need feminism. Seriously, I laughed out loud. Thank you, **Kimstu**. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/285 "2015-10-16T22:33:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > According to a study of relationships that engage in nonreciprocal violence, a whopping 70% are perpetrated by women. > > I don’t understand this one: _“Another editor slapped a guy when “he told me he thought he had breast cancer.” (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)”_. What’s the funny part? Some men, although very few, do get breast cancer. Anyway, jail or no jail, I’d have hit her so hard. She must have some astronomic feeling of entitlement and privilege to believe she can hit a man for no reason without him hitting back. > > \ Women hit men in intimate partner relationships when they know that the man won’t hit back. Or to put it differently, _because_ the know they won’t hit back. That’s what’s behind “prominent aggressor” policy. They want to be sure that if someone - like you - hit back “so hard”, you’d be going to jail - not the female. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/286 "2015-10-16T23:24:58Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Women hit men in intimate partner relationships when they know that the man won’t hit back. > > Or to put it differently, _because_ the know they won’t hit back. Any evidence for this? It reeks of folk wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/287 "2015-10-17T02:13:45Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Yes well that’s stupid of her but happens all the time. I just kinda suspect that Americans have a rather alien and difficult to understand relationship with the police and juridical system and such, which screws up stats made on the basis of police reports. There’s no doubt that the American judicial system is screwed up, and that relations between police and citizens are strained here. But I haven’t been to Denmark, so I can’t compare. I suspect the judicial system here is much harsher than in Denmark; we do have the most prisoners in the world, after all. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/288 "2015-10-17T02:21:06Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Let’s just cut out the weasling entirely and go for maximal info, shall we? > > I’m really not seeing the quoted bit as an inaccurate summary. Based on the analogous models for AA, where the most motivated to change their behavior do a whole bunch of things which don’t necessarily affect the behavior, we don’t see evidence of effectiveness for the Duluth model. > > Does this really matter, though? Is the effectiveness of the Duluth model something that anyone here is really invested in demonstrating? The Duluth Model is based on feminist ideology, which explicitly states that men are batterers and women are victims. Imagine for a moment there was a White Victimology ideology, which explicitly said that blacks are victimizers, and whites are victims. It’s the same thing, except the Duluth Model does it to men. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/289 "2015-10-17T02:35:17Z")
nm. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/290 "2015-10-17T11:46:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Also I did read a stat somewhere which showed that lesbian relationships were by far the ones most likely to be abusive, and gay the least likely. Heterosexual somewhere in-between. There’s a direct relationship between the number of women in the relationship and the amount of abuse. Correlation or causation. Your vague memory of “a stat you read somewhere” is not necessarily a reliable guide to overall trends, any more than anecdotes from your personal dating experiences are. According to [a CDC study](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/11/a-same-sex-domestic-violence-epidemic-is-silent/281131/), the category where the likelihood of being the victim of intimate partner violence is highest is bisexual women, not lesbians: > [@](#): > > The report found that bisexual women had an overwhelming prevalence of violent partners in their lives: 75 percent had been with a violent partner, as opposed to 46 percent of lesbian women and 43 percent of straight women. For bisexual men, that number was 47 percent. For gay men, it was 40 percent, and 21 percent for straight men. I’m also puzzled by your using a weightlifting abilities calculator to infer just from weight training strength standards that an average woman and an 11-12 year old boy would be comparable in a physical altercation. Just because a grown woman and a young boy may have similar ability to lift a certain amount of weight in a certain prescribed way doesn’t mean that the woman isn’t on average taller and heavier, with a longer reach and better mental control. After all, grown women physically restrain preteen boys all the time, but not vice versa. So I’m not sure that being physically attacked by a preteen boy is a valid model for the experience of being physically attacked by a grown woman. > [@LinusK](#): > > Seriously, I laughed out loud. Why? Feminism as I understand it, and as every feminist I’ve ever encountered has claimed to understand it, is committed to freeing **both** women and men from the unfairness of societally imposed gender roles and gender bias. That means that from a feminist point of view, advocating double standards that give women a pass on being physically violent is a bad thing for both women and men: it endangers men and trivializes women. The more people persist in clinging to such outdated and unfair double standards, the more we need feminism to push back against them. What’s funny about that? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/291 "2015-10-17T12:07:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Your vague memory of “a stat you read somewhere” is not necessarily a reliable guide to overall trends, any more than anecdotes from your personal dating experiences are. According to [a CDC study](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/11/a-same-sex-domestic-violence-epidemic-is-silent/281131/), the category where the likelihood of being the victim of intimate partner violence is highest is bisexual women, not lesbians: Yes, that’s the study. You are cherry picking, it is true that bisexual men & women are most in danger. However lesbians (43.8%) are 25% more often the victim of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner than are heterosexual men & women (35%), who are 35% more in danger than gay men (26%). So yes, by that survey lesbian relationships are much more violent than heterosexual relationships and way more violent than gay relationships. Two guys is apparently the most peaceful constellation possible. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m also puzzled by your using a weightlifting abilities calculator to infer just from weight training strength standards that an average woman and an 11-12 year old boy would be comparable in a physical altercation. Just because a grown woman and a young boy may have similar ability to lift a certain amount of weight in a certain prescribed way doesn’t mean that the woman isn’t on average taller and heavier, with a longer reach and better mental control. After all, grown women physically restrain preteen boys all the time, but not vice versa. So I’m not sure that being physically attacked by a preteen boy is a valid model for the experience of being physically attacked by a grown woman. I’ve seen several cases where grown women have been sexually assaulted by pre-teen boys, but I should hope that kids very seldom go around and attack adults, because of mental capability, authority, etc. - which say nothing of physical strength. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/292 "2015-10-17T12:32:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Yes, that’s the study. You are cherry picking, it is true that bisexual men & women are most in danger. However lesbians (43.8%) are 25% more often the victim of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner than are heterosexual men & women (35%), who are 35% more in danger than gay men (26%). So yes, by that survey lesbian relationships are much more violent than heterosexual relationships and way more violent than gay relationships. Two guys is apparently the most peaceful constellation possible. I think you might be making assumptions about the genders of the perpetrators of IPV violence that aren’t necessarily supported by the data you’re citing. For instance, you’re assuming that when [the CDC report](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_victimization_final-a.pdf) says that 44% of lesbian women experience rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner, the partner in question must have been a lesbian. But AFAICT the sexual orientation of the victims is determined only by how the victims self-identify. E.g., someone described as a lesbian in the study is someone who currently self-identifies as lesbian, not necessarily someone who has never been in an intimate partner relationship with a man. So some unknown amount of the “rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner” experienced by lesbians could well have been inflicted by men. This likelihood is strengthened by the additional statistic that _“Approximately 1 in 8 lesbian women (13%), nearly half of bisexual women (46%), and 1 in 6 heterosexual women (17%) have been raped in their lifetime.”_ Obviously, being raped in all those cases includes being raped by men, since we know that some lesbians **do** get raped by men. So I don’t think you can take it for granted that all of the IPV experienced in their lifetimes by women who self-identify as lesbians happened in same-sex relationships. (Similarly, of course, it isn’t guaranteed that all of the IPV experienced by men who self-identify as gay happened in same-sex relationships, either.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/293 "2015-10-17T12:39:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I should hope that kids very seldom go around and attack adults, because of mental capability, authority, etc. - which say nothing of physical strength. In that case, your earlier remark that _“12yo boys aren’t in general able to beat up grown men”_ wasn’t really useful as a standard of comparison for grown women’s ability to beat up grown men. Mind you, I’m not denying the well-known fact that on average, grown women **can’t** beat up grown men. I’m just not convinced that we should assume that on average, an attack by a grown woman would be no more difficult for a grown man to fend off than an attack by a preteen boy, merely because on average a grown woman and a preteen boy have similar weightlifting capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/294 "2015-10-17T15:34:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So I don’t think you can take it for granted that all of the IPV experienced in their lifetimes by women who self-identify as lesbians happened in same-sex relationships. (Similarly, of course, it isn’t guaranteed that all of the IPV experienced by men who self-identify as gay happened in same-sex relationships, either.) We had a thread about this study a while back, and then (as now) there were people trying to draw conclusions based on differences that the report said were not statistically significant. The full report can be found at [http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs\_sofindings.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf), and in the section “Lifetime Prevalence of Rape, Physical Violence, and/or Stalking Victimization by an Intimate Partner by Sexual Orientation” it says “Bisexual women experienced significantly higher prevalence of these types of violence compared to lesbian and heterosexual women. There were no statistically significant differences between the prevalence of rape, physical violence, and/or stalking when comparing lesbian women and heterosexual women” (p. 18/p. 24 of PDF) and “The differences between these groups of men [straight, bisexual, and gay] were not statistically significant” (p. 19/p. 25 of PDF). The study did ask victims of intimate partner violence about the sex (although not the sexual orientation) of the perpetrators, and this is discussed briefly on p. 27 of the report (p. 33 of the PDF). “Statistical testing to compare sex of perpetrator across all sexual orientations was not conducted”, but the perpetrator was usually a man if the victim was a straight/bi woman (98.7%/89.5% reported only male perpetrators) and usually a woman if the victim was a straight/bi man (99.5%/78.5% reported only female perpetrators). Among homosexual victims of intimate partner violence, 67.4% of lesbians reported only female perpetrators while 90.7% of gay men reported only male perpetrators. So while a majority of lesbian abuse victims had experienced intimate partner violence solely in the context of a same-sex relationship, nearly a third had been abused by a male partner. The report doesn’t say how many lesbians had solely been abused by male partners and how many had been abused by both male and female partners. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/295 "2015-10-17T19:19:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Your cites from that linked source don’t seem very representative of the information in that linked source. Some other things the source says: > > So overall, women are more likely to be victims of both non-severe and severe intimate partner violence. > > Mind you, I’m not denying that intimate partner violence by women is criminal and unacceptable. Nor do I disagree that many women who engage in IPV are taking advantage of the cultural prohibition against men hitting women. I’m just pointing out that in general, according to the data you cite, women are more likely to be IPV victims than men, and women are at higher risk for more severe forms of IPV than men. > > Also, if you take a look at Table 1 in [this report](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775776/) that breaks down IPV prevalence by same-sex vs. opposite relationship, it appears that while men and women are about equally likely to be victims of physical IPV from same-sex partners, the disparity in opposite-sex relationships is much greater. There are significantly more men inflicting physical violence on female partners than women inflicting physical violence on male partners. If you look at life-time rates, the stats are higher for women. If you look at the last 12 months, the stats are higher for men. So what does that tell you? That men are becoming less violent? Women are becoming more violent? Something else? Also, the chart you linked to may be misleading you. It says the percentage of men in the study population who were victims of female violence was 97.2%, vs. 88.8% of women who victims of men. I say “study population” because I don’t know what population those numbers represent, since it doesn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/296 "2015-10-17T20:59:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Very interesting data. Unfortunately many women and some men [approve severe abuse of men](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=767060). > > I am not an expert on these issues, but I am grateful to those who educate the public about these abuses. I think this one speaks for itself: it’s a clip from a CBS daytime show for women, [called The Talk.](http://www.mrctv.org/videos/sharon-osborne-leads-laughs-about-male-genital-mutilation) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/297 "2015-10-17T21:10:49Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Exceptionally stupid move. It gets YOU arrested. Yes, the police will take her word over yours. > > I was violently and viciously assaulted in my sleep by my ex-wife on three occasions before filing an order for protection. I made no move to reply in kind or subdue her, knowing that any mark on her was exactly what she wanted in order to prove to the world that her lies about me were in fact true. You did the right thing. If you’d tried to defend yourself, you’d been arrested, and people like **Hector\_St\_Clare** would have convicted you. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/298 "2015-10-17T23:26:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Women hit men in intimate partner relationships when they know that the man won’t hit back. > > Or to put it differently, _because_ the know they won’t hit back. Definitely – impunity is the main cause of abuse. In USA 2015 the laws de facto allow women to abuse men and severely punish men who defend themselves. [Unlimited power leads to abuse.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphine_LaLaurie) ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/299 "2015-10-17T23:28:33Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I think this one speaks for itself: it’s a clip from a CBS daytime show for women, [called The Talk.](http://www.mrctv.org/videos/sharon-osborne-leads-laughs-about-male-genital-mutilation) Today many men find that offensive and the celebration of that case was not nearly as big as the celebration of Lorena Bobbit. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/300 "2015-10-17T23:31:22Z")
From [Women Against Feminism](http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/post/131152599985/1-click-here-to-submit-your-picture-2-visit-our): [ul] [li]I don’t believe in personal attacks when I disagree.[/li][li]I know the dictionary definition of feminism, but the words and actions of many of today’s feminists don’t match that.[/li][li]I don’t like double standards, and many modern feminists have double standards.[/li][li]I don’t believe that women are inherently victims or that men are inherently oppressors…[/li][/ul] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=16)