# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/321 "2015-10-19T13:38:14Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > For instance if someone published [like this](http://chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Male-Supremacy/228769/) about women, they would be blacklisted from all jobs. But Chronicle of Higher Education published this about men. I like it. > [@](#): > > Women are not equal to men; they are superior in many ways, and in most ways that will count in the future. It is not just a matter of culture or upbringing. It is a matter of chromosomes, genes, hormones, and nerve circuits. It is not mainly because of how experience shapes women, but because of intrinsic differences in the body and the brain. Well, at least we know what The Chronicle of Higher Education Thinks is wrong with men: we’re simply genetically inferior. Perhaps that explains why [Women Now 33% More Likely Than Men to Earn College Degrees](http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/women-now-33-more-likely-men-earn-college-degrees). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/322 "2015-10-19T13:42:37Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > The Pit is full of thousands of [mansults](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11874379/Mansults-the-put-downs-that-are-always-levelled-at-straight-white-males.html) – which is the norm. One gendered insult toward women is seen as terrible. Our society is saturated with male – bashing. This is silly. I’m a white male. By your link, the target of these types of slights and yet I do not feel the least bit injured by them. What’s more, I have met exactly the types of people described by these insults and you know what?.. They are absolutely fitting. In fact, I’ve called people douchebags, neckbeards, fuckboys (man-slut), and various other insulting terms. Not because they are white and privileged, but because they were WELL DESERVED. > [@CCitizen](#): > > In modern media and on the Pit in this board misandry (which is supposedly not real) seems to be much more prevalent then misogyny. Look, misogyny AND misandry exist. No reasonable person would disagree. Neither position is right or defensable. Men and women who express these views are the extreme, not the norm and as such should be exposed and ridiculed as warranted, like any racist of any stripe would be. The question is, what is it about you that makes you believe yourself to be the victim of such insults compared to the majority who are able to dismiss them as being directed at those who are actually deserving of the term due to their own behaviour? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/323 "2015-10-19T13:45:32Z")
Boy, us men are pretty damn awesome. Despite all the manpression and manscrimination, we still somehow claw our way to the tops of most organization, are vastly over-represented in politics and at high levels of business and almost every other field, make more money with the same experience than women, and more. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/324 "2015-10-19T13:52:53Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, at least we know what The Chronicle of Higher Education Thinks is wrong with men: we’re simply genetically inferior. Are there men or women that you personally know in your life that believe this or would take this seriously or are these boogeymen that you’re cherry picking? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/325 "2015-10-19T13:53:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This is silly. I’m a white male. By your link, the target of these types of slights and yet I do not feel the least bit injured by them. What’s more, I have met exactly the types of people described by these insults and you know what?.. They are absolutely fitting. In fact, I’ve called people douchebags, neckbeards, fuckboys (man-slut), and various other insulting terms. Not because they are white and privileged, but because they were WELL DESERVED. I’ve used most of those words too. And worse. And I’ve also called female people crazy bitches, disloyal whores, money grubbing gold-diggers, airheadede bimbos, dirty sluts and skanks and various other insulting terms – because they were WELL DESERVED. Just as long as we’re all ok with what’s good for the gander is good for the goose. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/326 "2015-10-19T13:55:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Boy, us men are pretty damn awesome. Despite all the manpression and manscrimination, we still somehow claw our way to the tops of most organization, are vastly over-represented in politics and at high levels of business and almost every other field, make more money with the same experience than women, and more. …invent most things, engineer most things, build most things, mine, drill, ship and freight most things, discover most things and most places. One way and another _we_ men seem to manage to make ourselves useful to the species. But what that’s telling us (and your sarcastic tirade above is telling us) is that the highest achievers in all fields are overwhelmingly men. What it doesn’t say is anything at all about the lot of the _average_ man - which I should think concerns over “manspression” and “manscrimination” are largely about. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/327 "2015-10-19T15:00:16Z")
_We_ sure have become some whiny motherfuckers, though, haven’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/328 "2015-10-19T16:30:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > _We_ sure have become some whiny motherfuckers, though, haven’t we? You patriarchal misogynist! It’s fatherfuckers! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/329 "2015-10-19T18:32:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If you look at life-time rates, the stats are higher for women. If you look at the last 12 months, the stats are higher for men. > > So what does that tell you? That men are becoming less violent? Women are becoming more violent? Something else? It doesn’t tell us anything except what the rates were in the last 12 months, as compared to lifetime rates. We can’t really infer any kind of a long-term trend over multiple years from just looking at data for a single year. > [@LinusK](#): > > Also, the chart you linked to may be misleading you. It says the percentage of men in the study population who were victims of female violence was 97.2%, vs. 88.8% of women who victims of men. I say “study population” because I don’t know what population those numbers represent, since it doesn’t say. In fact, the article **does** say what those numbers represent: > [@](#): > > The analyses presented here included respondents who indicated that they were victims of IPV and identified their relationships with the perpetrators (n = 561 for 2005; n = 5445 for 2006; and n = 1992 for 2007). IPV victimization included lifetime verbal abuse, physical violence, and unwanted sexual intercourse. So your interpretation is a little off. The chart indicates that in the study there were 1686 men who were victims of IPV violence by women, and 6139 women who were victims of IPV violence by men. The 97.2% verses 88.8% statistic represents the prevalence of specifically physical violence among those victims. In other words, there were 1639 men (92.7% of 1686) who were physically abused by female partners, and 5451 women (88.8% of 6139) who were physically abused by male partners. Which indicates that are significantly more men inflicting physical violence on female partners than women inflicting physical violence on male partners, which is exactly what I said in post #268. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/330 "2015-10-19T18:59:22Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, at least we know what The Chronicle of Higher Education Thinks is wrong with men ? Why are you ascribing the opinions expressed by an anthropology professor named Melvin Konner in [the article in your link](http://chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Male-Supremacy/228769/) to the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ itself? The _Chronicle_ published that article in its “Opinion and Ideas” department under _Chronicle_ Review. As the name indicates, that department is for opinion pieces and reviews concerning debatable ideas. If you look at some of the other articles published there, you’ll see equally disputed or provocative statements. Do you believe that the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ as an institution officially thinks they’re all true? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/331 "2015-10-19T20:28:52Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I’ve used most of those words too. And worse. And I’ve also called female people crazy bitches, disloyal whores, money grubbing gold-diggers, airheadede bimbos, dirty sluts and skanks and various other insulting terms – because they were WELL DESERVED. Just as long as we’re all ok with what’s good for the gander is good for the goose. As a Libertarian, I believe that the **problems caused by offensive speech can be solved by more offensive speech**. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/332 "2015-10-19T20:57:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I’ve used most of those words too. And worse. And I’ve also called female people crazy bitches, disloyal whores, money grubbing gold-diggers, airheadede bimbos, dirty sluts and skanks and various other insulting terms – because they were WELL DESERVED. Just as long as we’re all ok with what’s good for the gander is good for the goose. Sure. Why not. As Dane Cook said, “[…every Karen is a douchebag.](https://youtu.be/2GMKL6fwdKU?t=43)”. It’s true in my experience thus far but I don’t know all the Karens and I’m sure there are a few exceptions. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > _We_ sure have become some whiny motherfuckers, though, haven’t we? Tru dat. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/333 "2015-10-19T21:12:02Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > As a Libertarian, I believe that the **problems caused by offensive speech can be solved by more offensive speech**. Here’s the thing. Most people can separate a joke from a real insult. Even the phrase, “Men are such babies”, which is commonly enough repeated, has some truth in it. Men can often act immature in certain situations (e.i. sick, beaten in sports, denied sex, etc.). Women have their own idiosyncratic tendencies. So even if in jest or anger someone says, “Bitches… whacha gonna do?” It’s virtually never meant as an insult to every single female walking the planet at that very moment. In short. Stop focusing on every slight (real or in jest) that comes in your general direction and grow a thicker skin. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/334 "2015-10-19T21:49:56Z")
> [@camille](#): > > You’re not getting it. Women Against Feminism is a PR _campaign_ started by the MRA/Anti-feminist movement. > > If neither feminism nor antifeminism/MRA are monolith, then why are _all_ feminists being smeared by the OP for the words and actions of any self identified feminist individual he can dig up on the internet? > > Can’t have it both ways. If he’s going to cite a Sharon Osbourne video or Jezebel article as if it represents me, then I’m going to come back with some of the crap from his fellow anti-feminists and expect him to own it too. Especially since he is parroting the same talking points as most of these people, whereas most of us feminists here do not even agree with the social media radfem agenda. > > Frankly, I don’t think a debate or discussion is what the OP is after. It would appear he’s running a campaign of his own. > > That is exactly the answer, and I provided the cites. What informs your opinion? > > Bloomfield organized the campaign. She actually has minions (i.e., followers on social media). They engage in social media campaigns and descend on article comments sections en masse whenever this topic comes up. This is how it’s played. > > You’re being awfully naive here if you’re seriously suggesting it’s just a bunch of random individuals with no organized agenda. **Camille** good job tracking all this down. So “Women against Feminism” is actually a “grassroots” movement started by people deeply involved in the MRA? I am very definitely not surprised that **LinusK** brought this forward. In fairness, although I no longer believe in the veracity of these women, I do believe some women feel this way. Which is why, as several people have stated, it is impossible to argue that Feminism is a monolith. It is too large and fractured. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/335 "2015-10-20T00:34:15Z")
Btw, i love that a feminine hygiene product is a “mansult.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/336 "2015-10-20T01:50:29Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I just wanted to point out that **LinusK** just cited _The Onion_. > [@LinusK](#): > > What clued you in? The URL contained “theonion”, and it also said “The Onion” at the top of the page. You probably could have figured it out yourself if you’d tried, but believe me, I was happy to be the one to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/337 "2015-10-20T02:37:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Here’s the thing. Most people can separate a joke from a real insult. Even the phrase, “Men are such babies”, which is commonly enough repeated, has some truth in it. Men can often act immature in certain situations (e.i. sick, beaten in sports, denied sex, etc.). Women have their own idiosyncratic tendencies. So even if in jest or anger someone says, “Bitches… whacha gonna do?” It’s virtually never meant as an insult to every single female walking the planet at that very moment. > > In short. Stop focusing on every slight (real or in jest) that comes in your general direction and grow a thicker skin. Do you think that all those jokes/insults get the same reaction, though? If someone says “bitches, whacha gonna do”, and a woman says that’s out of line, does anyone tell her to grow a thicker skin? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/338 "2015-10-20T06:54:30Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Do you think that all those jokes/insults get the same reaction, though? If someone says “bitches, whacha gonna do”, and a woman says that’s out of line, does anyone tell her to grow a thicker skin? Frequently. Do you really think that women who protest against sexist slurs don’t constantly hear “it’s just a joke”, “lighten up”, “geez, who pissed in your Cheerios?”, “bitches got no sense of humor, amirite?”, and various other dismissive or trivializing nonpologies? Mind you, as a woman and a feminist, I’m personally in the “two wrongs don’t make a right” camp on this one. I don’t like the use of gender stereotypes or gendered body parts as insults, whichever gender we’re talking about. (Genital effluvia, blemishes or hygienic refuse are fair game regardless of gender, though: e.g., “twat” and “cock” are sexist insults but “cumstain”, “twatdribble”, and “dickpimple” are not, in my rulebook. I hope everybody is taking notes on this, as there will be a quiz.) That said, I think the principle of gender equality doesn’t require us to deny that there’s a lot of traditional gender _in_equality out there, and consequently differently gendered slurs used by speakers of different genders have different levels of impact. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/339 "2015-10-20T07:06:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Frequently. Do you really think that women who protest against sexist slurs don’t constantly hear “it’s just a joke”, “lighten up”, “geez, who pissed in your Cheerios?”, “bitches got no sense of humor, amirite?”, and various other dismissive or trivializing nonpologies? I suppose those things are said to women, but when they are they’re considered to be dismissive and trivializing. When they’re said to men it’s with an aura of “check your privilege”. It’s all very complicated, and no one can be said to speak authoritatively (or be held accountable) for either side, but there are subtle dynamics and the occasional double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/340 "2015-10-20T07:27:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I suppose those things are said to women, but when they are they’re considered to be dismissive and trivializing. When they’re said to men it’s with an aura of “check your privilege”. I agree that sometimes happens, and I don’t think it’s fair. I do think there needs to be a way to point out gently that someone may need to check their privilege, but gendered insults are not it. For example, there **are** some men who fit the stereotype of expecting a lot of nurturing and attention when sick but taking it for granted that their wives will just carry on with their usual workload if **they** get sick. But if a guy happens to be doing that, saying “Men are such babies” to him is not the way to handle it. [QUOTE=Robot Arm] It’s all very complicated, and no one can be said to speak authoritatively (or be held accountable) for either side, but there are subtle dynamics and the occasional double standard. [/QUOTE] Yup. There is no question that traditional power disparities (who’s “punching up” and who’s “punching down”) have sometimes led to women unfairly being given a pass on incivility or aggression directed at men. And as I said, that’s bad for both men and women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=18)