# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/361 "2015-10-21T09:06:26Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > It doesn’t tell us anything except what the rates were in the last 12 months, as compared to lifetime rates. We can’t really infer any kind of a long-term trend over multiple years from just looking at data for a single year. > > You owe me .23 seconds of my life. > > > [@](#): > > > > According to data from the Department of Education on college degrees by gender, the US college degree gap favoring women started back in 1978, when for the first time ever, more women than men earned Associate’s degrees. Five years later in 1982, women earned more bachelor’s degrees than men for the first time, and women have increased their share of bachelor’s degrees in every year since then. In another five years by 1987, women earned the majority of master’s degrees for the first time. Finally, within another decade, more women than men earned doctor’s degrees by 2006, and female domination of college degrees at every level was complete. > > > > For the current graduating class of 2013, the Department of Education estimates that women will earn 61.6% of all associate’s degrees this year, 56.7% of all bachelor’s degrees, 59.9% of all master’s degrees, and 51.6% of all doctor’s degrees. Overall, 140 women will graduate with a college degree at some level this year for every 100 men. How is this supposed to be a response to my noting (not very controversially, either) that we can’t infer any long-term trends in intimate partner violence just from data for the past 12 months? Did you perhaps get me confused with a different poster with whom you’re discussing gender gaps in education level? Because, of course, the study you cited has jackshit to do with either intimate partner violence or inferring long-term trends from short-term data. > [@LinusK](#): > > But given that: There is a birth defect that is surprisingly common, affecting a key pair of chromosomes. In the normal condition the two look the same, but in this disorder one is shrunken beyond recognition. The result is shortened life span, higher mortality at all ages, an inability to reproduce, premature hair loss, and brain defects variously resulting in attention deficit, hyperactivity, conduct disorder, hypersexuality, and an enormous excess of both outward and self-directed aggression. The main mechanism is androgen poisoning. I call it the X-chromosome deficiency syndrome, and a stunning 49 percent of the human species is affected. It is also called maleness. [/quote] [it shouldn’t be surprising.](http://chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Male-Supremacy/228769/) [/quote] AFAIK, the author of the deliberately provocative article you quote here, an anthropologist named Melvin Konner, is not posting in this thread. Nobody in this thread has endorsed or advocated Konner’s position. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/362 "2015-10-21T09:12:45Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Random internet people? _ **They** _ are the ones that founded and led feminism. _ **You** _ are the random internet people. Nope. Most of your quotes and links are not from people who either “founded” or “led” feminism. Feel free to ignore or sidestep my point if your main goal is to have a feminist bogeyman to oppose, rather than discuss things with actual feminists. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/363 "2015-10-21T09:35:31Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > _“The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together. … Whatever it’s ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process. … “Families have supported oppression by separating people into small, isolated units, unable to join together to fight for common interests._ …” – Functions of the Family, Linda Gordon, WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969. > > _"We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage. "_ – Robin Morgan, “Sisterhood Is Powerful,” 1970, p. 537 > > _“No women should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Women should not have that choice, because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one”_ Feminist Simone de Beauvoir, Saturday Review, June 14, 1975. > > _“Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free.”_ – Andrea Dworkin. “The Root Cause,” speech, 26 Sept. 1975, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge (published in Our Blood, ch. 9, 1976). > > _“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”_ – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor. > > _“Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.”_ > Sheila Cronin - “Marriage” (1970), Koedt, Levine, and Rapone, eds., HarperCollins, 1973, p. 219) > > The destruction of families - and especially of families with fathers - has been a feminist goal for 50 years or more. A few quotes from particular feminists (some of them politically very radical feminists) back in the turbulent days of 1970s Women’s Lib do not plausibly establish “the destruction of families” as a “feminist goal” in general. The vast majority of people who self-identify as feminist nowadays, AFAICT, do not endorse destroying marriage, family or fatherhood. [QUOTE=LinusK] According to the [Census Bureau](http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/AD3b.pdf), half of adults today live with a spouse, down from over two thirds in 1967. [/quote] How much of that effect is due to the fact that more adults nowadays are getting married in their late 20s to 30s rather than their early 20s? How much of it is due to the aging of the US population, which produces a higher percentage of adults who are widowed and hence not living with a spouse? There is nothing particularly “anti-family” about the fact that nowadays Americans who marry tend to marry somewhat later and live significantly longer than they did in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/364 "2015-10-21T09:52:38Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’ve long since given up hope that feminists have the ability to abstain from ad hominem attacks. What **Miller** said wasn’t actually an _ad hominem_ attack, though. Saying that an opponent is a bad reasoner _because they made badly reasoned arguments_ is not an _ad hominem_. If **Miller** had called you a bad reasoner on the grounds that, say, “all people named Linus are illogical” or some other trait of yours unrelated to the actual content of your arguments, **that** would be an _ad hominem_. But **Miller** is saying that you’re “unable to parse a distinction between being against the concept of families altogether” because you in fact did make statements that conflated those two positions. And **Miller** remarked that “apparently, in his head being against marriage means being in favor of single-parent households” because you did in fact imply that feminists who advocated the former position therefore support the latter. In other words, **Miller** is calling you a bad reasoner based on examples of your bad reasoning. You may naturally feel insulted by that, or you may feel that his criticism of your arguments is inaccurate, but you can’t accurately describe it as an _ad hominem_ attack. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/365 "2015-10-21T10:01:26Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > > In short. Stop focusing on every slight (real or in jest) that comes in your general direction and grow a thicker skin. > > [Maybe you should tell that to feminists](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinson_business_insider_cto_forced_out_for_sexist_racist_tweets.html?wpisrc=flyouts). > > > [@](#): > > > > For years, Business Insider Chief Technology Officer Pax Dickinson was just tweeting along, novelty cowboy hat perched atop his head, collar popped, aviator sunglasses engaged: “Women’s suffrage and individual freedom are incompatible. How’s that for an unpopular truth?” he tweeted. And “Men have made the world such a safe and comfortable place that women now have the time to bitch about not being considered our equals.” And “This election will be decided by single women. It’s an epic battle between ‘Jungle Fever’ and ‘Daddy Issues’." … > > > > Yesterday, some people read these tweets, retweeted them, and wrote stories about them. “I’ve been expecting this to happen for a long time,” Dickinson tweeted as the opposition kicked into gear. “With me, they don’t just disagree. It quickly morphs into trying to threaten my job.” Today Dickinson is no longer the CTO of Business Insider. Nice selective quoting there. Here’s a fuller version: > [@](#): > > For years, Business Insider Chief Technology Officer Pax Dickinson was just tweeting along, novelty cowboy hat perched atop his head, collar popped, aviator sunglasses engaged: “Women’s suffrage and individual freedom are incompatible. How’s that for an unpopular truth?” he tweeted. And “Men have made the world such a safe and comfortable place that women now have the time to bitch about not being considered our equals.” And “This election will be decided by single women. It’s an epic battle between ‘Jungle Fever’ and ‘Daddy Issues’." > > Also: “In The Passion Of The Christ 2, Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers. It’s his own fault for dressing like a whore though.” > > Yesterday, some people read these tweets, retweeted them, and wrote stories about them. “I’ve been expecting this to happen for a long time,” Dickinson tweeted as the opposition kicked into gear. “With me, they don’t just disagree. It quickly morphs into trying to threaten my job.” Today Dickinson is no longer the CTO of Business Insider. […] > > Dickinson listed his Business Insider title atop his twitter feed; when he sent out calls for open positions at the company, he included his Twitter handle. Yeah, those terrible feminists, objecting to an executive of a prestigious business publication tweeting “Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers” under his professional company title. Geez, feminists, lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/366 "2015-10-21T11:34:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nice selective quoting there. Here’s a fuller version: > > Yeah, those terrible feminists, objecting to an executive of a prestigious business publication tweeting “Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers” under his professional company title. Geez, feminists, lighten up. **LinusK** , do you believe it was inappropriate for the prestigious business publication to fire this executive after making this tweet, and if so, do you believe feminists or feminism are to blame? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/367 "2015-10-21T13:10:22Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m not a libertarian, but as a liberal, I also support free speech. Feminists, on the other hand, do not. Which is one of the reasons they’re not liberals. It is not suppression of free speech when reasonable people fundamentally disagree with what you have to say. Especially since what you have to say is not a conversation but more of a soap box missive against a widely varied group of people whom you consistantly mischaractarize and demonize. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/368 "2015-10-21T15:07:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **LinusK** , do you believe it was inappropriate for the prestigious business publication to fire this executive after making this tweet, and if so, do you believe feminists or feminism are to blame? Clearly freedom of speech means freedom from consequences when you say offensive racist, sexist shit while putting yourself forward as a representative of a private organization. ---
**Author:** ![Whodeythink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d2c977/32.png) [@Whodeythink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whodeythink)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/369 "2015-10-22T04:07:44Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Seem to be based on an idea of feminism that is not necessarily correct, but I do think that the women in question bring up some interesting points. To me, feminism is very simple, it basically means that you understand that we live in a society that was created with the man as the norm, which makes it unjust towards women, and to take the stance that this is not OK. I’m pretty sure that the women would agree to these statements: > > - Women should have equal rights to men > - Women should be paid equal wages for the same job > - Women should be protected against gender discrimination > > If they do, then as far as I am concerned they are feminists. This is utter nonsense. It’s appealing to a reductionist definition of feminism, and then imposing that to avoid any critical analysis. No, feminism is not just those three points. ---
**Author:** ![Whodeythink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d2c977/32.png) [@Whodeythink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whodeythink)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/370 "2015-10-22T04:09:44Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Soon criticism of feminism [will be banned](http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/25/u-n-womens-group-calls-for-web-censorship/) on all social networks. > > Too many young men are starting to believe they are the ones being subject to gender discrimination. Now UN is going to take drastic measures to stop antifeminist propaganda. Except gender discrimination isn’t a either-or situation. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/371 "2015-10-23T00:01:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ? Why are you ascribing the opinions expressed by an anthropology professor named Melvin Konner in [the article in your link](http://chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Male-Supremacy/228769/) to the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ itself? > > The _Chronicle_ published that article in its “Opinion and Ideas” department under _Chronicle_ Review. As the name indicates, that department is for opinion pieces and reviews concerning debatable ideas. If you look at some of the other articles published there, you’ll see equally disputed or provocative statements. Do you believe that the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ as an institution officially thinks they’re all true? Do you think The Chronicle of Education would publish a piece arguing (you know, we have that extra chromosome they don’t have) that women are genetically inferior to men? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/372 "2015-10-23T00:04:04Z")
**LinusK** , do you believe it was inappropriate for a prestigious business publication to fire an executive after making he tweeted “Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers” under his professional company title, and if so, do you believe feminists or feminism are to blame? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/373 "2015-10-23T00:19:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > How is this supposed to be a response to my noting (not very controversially, either) that we can’t infer any long-term trends in intimate partner violence just from data for the past 12 months? Did you perhaps get me confused with a different poster with whom you’re discussing gender gaps in education level? > > Because, of course, the study you cited has jackshit to do with either intimate partner violence or inferring long-term trends from short-term data. You’re right: I fucked up. The long-term trend I was referencing was the increasing number of women with college degrees. Poor reading on my part. 12 month data is important because (1) it conveys what’s happening now; and (2) people have notoriously poor memories. Typically, the further in the past, the poorer the memory. Also, you didn’t answer my question: > [@](#): > > If you look at life-time rates, the stats are higher for women. If you look at the last 12 months, the stats are higher for men. > > So what does that tell you? That men are becoming less violent? Women are becoming more violent? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/374 "2015-10-23T01:19:04Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > If someone looks at the Mainstream Media, they would probably see ten negative stereotypes about men to one negative stereotype about women. This is something that has been noted by many people. I’m not one of them, because I stopped watching sitcoms years ago. But Homer Simpson is the archetypical example, and I do know who he is: the clueless, useless, idiot father. Anyway, [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad) has a page about it, with plenty of examples. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/375 "2015-10-23T01:23:11Z")
What about Pax Dickinson, **LinusK**? Was it wrong to fire him after he tweeted “Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers”? If so, are feminists to blame? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/376 "2015-10-23T01:56:44Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m not a libertarian, but as a liberal, I also support free speech. Feminists, on the other hand, do not. Which is one of the reasons they’re not liberals. I think a few people have already asked you about this, but I’ll join in. How is it again that feminists are not liberals? I would like to state for the record that I am officially offended that you are making statements purporting to speak for me. I should likely have done so a long time ago. My bad. I’ll do it now. **LinusK** every time you make a sweeping statement about “feminists” you are, as you have been told repeatedly on multiple threads, speaking about a movement as large and fractured as Christianity. You refuse to accept that, I know. You believe it is a monolith. It is not. Nonetheless, because you are making these sweeping statements and judgments, over things large and small, I wanted to let you know that you are offending me and diminishing my gender. You do not speak for me. You do not understand me. You refuse to accept my word for what I believe in. You seem to embody everything that feminism was created to fight against: the male that tells the female she does not know her own mind. I have no idea what you are hoping to accomplish with this thread or any other, but you should be aware of the huge logical fallacy you are creating every time you start one of them. You ignore every feminist and make debate impossible. What is it exactly that you are hoping to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/377 "2015-10-23T02:08:58Z")
For the White Knights/male feminists, I’m going to throw you a lifeline. Ever wonder why you’re in the friendzone? [Karen Straughan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4) - yeah, I know it’s long. Feminists don’t like male feminists. [Why I won’t date another ‘male feminist’](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/19/why-i-wont-date-another-male-feminist) \*…dating male feminists turned out to be one of the least empowering decisions I’ve ever made. For every male feminist horror story I have lived, I’ve been told a dozen more by equally-frustrated female friends… Feminism has enlightened and empowered me, and now I’m using that power to put my foot down and say “no more” to the movement’s male members.\* And finally: [it speaks for itself](http://womenagainstfeminism.com/portfolioitem/we-need-each-other/). Attraction is non-negotiable: and women are not attracted to males who think they’re genetically inferior versions of women. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/378 "2015-10-23T02:12:11Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > For the White Knights/male feminists, I’m going to throw you a lifeline. > > Ever wonder why you’re in the friendzone? [Karen Straughan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4) - yeah, I know it’s long. > > Feminists don’t like male feminists. > > [Why I won’t date another ‘male feminist’](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/19/why-i-wont-date-another-male-feminist) > > \*…dating male feminists turned out to be one of the least empowering decisions I’ve ever made. > > For every male feminist horror story I have lived, I’ve been told a dozen more by equally-frustrated female friends… > > Feminism has enlightened and empowered me, and now I’m using that power to put my foot down and say “no more” to the movement’s male members.\* > > And finally: [it speaks for itself](http://womenagainstfeminism.com/portfolioitem/we-need-each-other/). > > Attraction is non-negotiable: and women are not attracted to males who think they’re genetically inferior versions of women. Do you not know what scare quotes are? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/379 "2015-10-23T02:13:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What about Pax Dickinson, **LinusK**? Was it wrong to fire him after he tweeted “Jesus gets raped by a pack of niggers”? If so, are feminists to blame? He ain’t gonna answer ya. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/380 "2015-10-23T02:13:28Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > I have no idea what you are hoping to accomplish with this thread or any other, but you should be aware of the huge logical fallacy you are creating every time you start one of them. **You ignore every feminist and make debate impossible.** > > What is it exactly that you are hoping to accomplish? I think you answered your own question there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=20)