# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/21 "2015-09-27T05:13:29Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Seem to be based on an idea of feminism that is not necessarily correct, but I do think that the women in question bring up some interesting points. To me, feminism is very simple, it basically means that you understand that we live in a society that was created with the man as the norm, which makes it unjust towards women, and to take the stance that this is not OK. I’m pretty sure that the women would agree to these statements: > > - Women should have equal rights to men > - Women should be paid equal wages for the same job > - Women should be protected against gender discrimination > > If they do, then as far as I am concerned they are feminists. > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]I don’t need feminism. Feminism promotes making men our enemies.[/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because I like when men say compliments about my body.[/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because: [/li][LIST] > [li]I am a victim of my own bad choices.[/li][li]Someone disagreeing with me is not an attack.[/li][li]I am capable of thinking for myself.[/li][/ul] > > [li]I don’t need feminism because it no longer stands for equality![/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because feminism is no longer a fight for women’s rights, but a way for women to victimize men for their own gain.[/li] > [li]Why I don’t need modern feminism: [/li][ul] > [li]I’m not oppressed.[/li][li]I’m not a victim.[/li][li]I acknowledge men’s issues.[/li][li]I’m for REAL GENDER EQUALITY.[/li][/ul] > > [li]I don’t need feminism because it’s the 21st century in America and being female is seriously SERIOUSLY THE BEST.[/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because I like men looking at me when I look good. That’s why I do this.[/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because our sons are not inherent rapists and our daughters are not perpetual victims.[/li] > [li]I need feminism because I need an excuse when I act like a drunk empty-headed slut and cheat on my boyfriend.[/li] > [li]I don’t need feminism because I believe in LOVE not condemnation and HATE.[/li][/LIST] They seem to have different ideas about what feminism is than you do. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/22 "2015-09-27T05:16:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Based on what most of them have written, I’d say that most of them appear to be feminists who have been given the wrong impression of what feminism is. In the majority it looks to be a pro-sex, anti-male-hater movement rather than an anti-feminist movement. > > Granted, I’m sure that there’s genuine anti-feminists mixed in among them, but that does not appear to be the majority. Well you know how women are. They can’t think for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/23 "2015-09-27T05:24:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Every poll that I’ve ever seen on the subject reports that the great majority of women are not feminists, according to themselves. Obviously choosing not to be a feminist isn’t the same thing as being against feminism, but anyone who’s followed the culture for the past several generations knows that there have always been a large number of women who are against feminism. So plainly the women posting on this particular Tumblr are not the vanguard of a totally new social phenomenon that’s never been seen before. I know that most women don’t identify themselves as feminists. But I haven’t seen this kind of social media attack on feminism by women before. Of course, the fact I haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/24 "2015-09-27T05:30:59Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well you know how women are. They can’t think for themselves. Much like men, then. If mankind was all-knowing and rational, in general, there wouldn’t be much use of this forum. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/25 "2015-09-27T05:31:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Liberals and conservatives both tend to be authoritarian. I disagree: in my opinion, liberals are anti-authoritarian. Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which wealth flows from the poor to the rich as _natural_; liberals see it as constructed. A thing that is constructed can be reconstructed. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/26 "2015-09-27T05:48:02Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > More likely then not in a few years no one [dare to say that](http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchford-ruling-in-twitter-harassment-trial-could-have-enormous-fallout-for-free-speech). Yeah, I’ve heard about that case: absolutely horrible. I like to think that here in the US the First Amendment would prevent such a thing. You can [read more about it here](http://grindedgear.blogspot.com/2015/09/when-feminists-attack-their-own-story.html), if you want. The details seem to lay bare the absolute naked hypocrisy of modern day feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/27 "2015-09-27T06:50:00Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which wealth flows from the poor to the rich as _natural_; That is the exact opposite of the truth. If participation in an economic system makes poor people poorer, the strictly libertarian position is that it is immoral to force them to participate - you may only use force to prevent somebody actively causing harm to others. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/28 "2015-09-27T07:42:42Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which wealth flows from the poor to the rich as _natural_ No, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/29 "2015-09-27T08:07:52Z")
Most of the comments make pretty good sense. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/30 "2015-09-27T08:29:09Z")
There are two groups of women anti-feminists I’ve seen. The ones that take that label because they think feminism refers only to the misandrist part of the movement–I disagree with them, but I have no problem with them. And then there are the ones that say women should be submissive and shit like that. Those I view as either self-hating women or those duped by the patriarchy. If the way forward is to give up the name feminism, fine–though I’m trying to make that not the case–but I hate seeing them partner with those who want to pull us back to the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/31 "2015-09-27T09:18:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There are two groups of women anti-feminists I’ve seen. The ones that take that label because they think feminism refers only to the misandrist part of the movement–I disagree with them, but I have no problem with them. And then there are the ones that say women should be submissive and shit like that. Those I view as either self-hating women or those duped by the patriarchy. > > If the way forward is to give up the name feminism, fine–though I’m trying to make that not the case–but I hate seeing them partner with those who want to pull us back to the 1950s. No argument here just a question: What if a girl/woman really likes cooking and keeping house and wearing a dress or dressing or acting feminine. Those actions alone do not make one submissive do they? (That would probably be a very bad combination with an overbearing husband, however. If this last comment is too distracting disregard it.) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/32 "2015-09-27T09:20:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is the exact opposite of the truth. If participation in an economic system makes poor people poorer, the strictly libertarian position is that it is immoral to force them to participate What other choice do they have? A self induced coma? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/33 "2015-09-27T09:27:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No argument here just a question: > > What if a girl/woman really likes cooking and keeping house and wearing a dress or dressing or acting feminine. Those actions alone do not make one submissive do they? > > (That would probably be a very bad combination with an overbearing husband, however. If this last comment is too distracting disregard it.) No, and feminism isn’t about preventing women from being wives and mothers and housekeepers and cooks or wearing dresses. It’s about making such life choices a genuine _choice_ and not something _forced_ on women. Of course, then you get people involved and things get messy. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/34 "2015-09-27T09:39:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No argument here just a question: > > What if a girl/woman really likes cooking and keeping house and wearing a dress or dressing or acting feminine. Those actions alone do not make one submissive do they? Would they make a man submissive? Change wearing a dress to always dressing up, perhaps what is termed metrosexual (I dislike the term a bit)? The point of feminism is that those things (cultural/gender norms) are not in the realm of womanhood (or manhood). People can choose what to do and what they like, that is a main point of feminism. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/35 "2015-09-27T09:55:29Z")
As a single entity Feminism lost its way decades ago - fwiw, I would have counted myself, broadly speaking, as a feminist until perhaps the mid 90s. It became a meaningless term. Looking at (my) society, it makes far more sense to be interested in working class rights in general - and issues like child care, minimum wage, poverty, opportunity, education in particular - than it is wondering what society can do to make life still better whiny, entitled middle class mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/36 "2015-09-27T10:00:29Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The question is: Who are these people? They are women who are against feminism. Maybe they don’t want to be infantilized or perhaps they have some men in their life which have been fucked over by female privilege, or they’re the intellectual equal of girls kissing in the club. I recon they’re all sorts. > [@LinusK](#): > > An irrelevant minority? All internet warriors are irrelevant minorities. The majority of people are too busy with living their life to give a shit about political internet activists. > [@LinusK](#): > > A growing backlash against modern feminism? There is no backlash against feminism since feminism itself is a rather marginalized ideology. A vast majority of Americans believe in equality for women, but only a measly 18% identify as feminists. > [@LinusK](#): > > A handful of women brainwashed by the Patriarchy There is no patriarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/37 "2015-09-27T10:08:13Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Would they make a man submissive? Change wearing a dress to always dressing up, perhaps what is termed metrosexual (I dislike the term a bit)? ok, I guess I agree with this thus far… > [@](#): > > The point of feminism is that those things (cultural/gender norms) are not in the realm of womanhood (or manhood). People can choose what to do and what they like, that is a main point of feminism. Yes, but, there are some, for lack of a better term, personality differences between men that are based on genetics and gender? Or is it you position that all differences between men and women are cultural and learned, ie, not natural. I think it is a combination of forces. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/38 "2015-09-27T11:00:39Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There is no backlash against feminism since feminism itself is a rather marginalized ideology.\*\* A vast majority of Americans believe in equality for women\*\*, but only a measly 18% identify as feminists. My bold. That is the basic credo of feminism, regardless of how someone self identifies. I do not agree with everything every other feminist says or does, and it does not preclude me from identifying as a feminist. Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology; some people do not understand that. Most of these “I don’t need feminism because…” selfies on that site are strawman arguments. I can’t help but notice that many of them are common MRA memes. Coincidence? These young women are ignorant of history and take the things feminists fought for and achieved for granted. Put them back in time to how things were for women in the recent past and then see how they feel about the need for feminism. Gains in equality aren’t something that can be achieved and then forgotten. There is no guarantee that any of the gains made by feminists are permanent, especially when there are anti-feminists who scapegoat feminism for every problem men face today. These people seem to feel that women should take a step back in order to improve the situation for men, instead of realizing that the system (and the patriarchy is part of that) is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - men and women alike. Should women stop going to college in greater numbers in order to improve that stats for men? Avoid high paying jobs so men have less competition? Why don’t these anti-feminists work to help disadvantaged men, instead of expending all their energy trying to pull women down? Of course, this has all been said before, and will probably be ignored yet again. The OP likes to start threads on this topic over and over again, seemingly hoping for different results. There is a word for that behavior. I’m curious to see if this new thread will inspire yet more new members with MRA/anti-feminist leanings to post and gift us with their pearls of wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/39 "2015-09-27T11:05:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, but, there are some, for lack of a better term, personality differences between men that are based on genetics and gender? Or is it you position that all differences between men and women are cultural and learned, ie, not natural. I think it is a combination of forces. I think it is a combination, but I think genetics/hormones/innateness is less contributing than cultural and learned. And the main point again is that, no matter the choice, it is valid and should not be denied or dismissed solely because of the gender. If a man enjoys cooking and cleaning the house, he should not be judged or persuaded to stop doing it once he marries or mocked. Similar, a woman should not be persuaded to be a housekeeper if she prefers to do something else. Granted, I also believe everyone should have basic skills on cooking and household chores. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/40 "2015-09-27T11:59:40Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Although feminists generally align with liberals, when you look beneath the hood they are at heart authoritarians. No we aren’t. > [@LinusK](#): > > They seem to have different ideas about what feminism is than you do. They definitely do! I don’t know why you think their version of a philosophy they oppose is more “true” to that philosophy than the version of folks like myself who actually hold to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=3)