# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/401 "2015-10-24T01:34:56Z")
Seriously, LinusK, you are faced with a plethora of real life feminists, not strawmen built of faux stances, or at-a-distance random articles, and instead of trying to understand us or reconcile our views with your impressions of what feminism “really” means, you ignore us. You’re not here for the hunting, are you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/402 "2015-10-24T01:40:33Z")
It’s sad, **LinusK** , that you take the opinions of people who don’t like feminists as more valuable about what feminism is and means than actual self-described feminists. It’d be like trusting people who hate Jews, rather than Jews themselves, to tell you about Judaism. The best source for information about Judaism are Jews. The best source for information about feminism are feminists. There are plenty here that would be happy to answer your questions and engage with you, and it’s very sad if you’d prefer to take the word of those who oppose feminism over us about what feminism really is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/403 "2015-10-24T02:58:21Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You need to read the article again. I have to much respect for myself to go through that mendacious, poorly reasoned clown show a second time. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/404 "2015-10-24T02:59:54Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > 12 month data is important because (1) it conveys what’s happening now; and (2) people have notoriously poor memories. Typically, the further in the past, the poorer the memory. > > Also, you didn’t answer my question: > > > [@LinusK](#): > > > > If you look at life-time rates, the stats are higher for women. If you look at the last 12 months, the stats are higher for men. > > > > So what does that tell you? That men are becoming less violent? Women are becoming more violent? Something else? I did indeed answer that question, all the way back in post #329: > [@Kimstu](#): > > It doesn’t tell us anything except what the rates were in the last 12 months, as compared to lifetime rates. We can’t really infer any kind of a long-term trend over multiple years from just looking at data for a single year. Attempting to argue for the existence of any long-term trend based just on 12 months of data is statistically meaningless. It might be the case that women are becoming more violent and/or that men are becoming less violent, or it might be that the past 12 months shows just a random fluctuation in violence rates, or it might have something to do with changes in reporting patterns, or a number of other possible scenarios. **The 12-month data by itself doesn’t “tell us” anything except what happened in the past 12 months.** Now, what I personally happen to believe is that intimate-partner violence by women is probably massively underreported (although I’d guess that really severe violence, the kind that results in ER visits and hospitalizations, is probably not). So it wouldn’t surprise me at all if increasing transparency about this issue reveals that there is actually much more IPV committed by women than previously thought. But that’s just my gut-level speculation on the subject. It would be statistically irresponsible to infer that a short-term data set from just the past 12 months “tells us” anything concrete about long-term IPV trends. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/405 "2015-10-24T10:52:43Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yes, I know. I read the article: men are genetically deficient. I wasn’t sure, since you seemed to think that saying the opposite would be some kind of insult on par with the original statement, when the original statement is, in fact, true - men _are_ genetically deficient compared to women, just in the sense of having less of the damn stuff. > [@](#): > > You need to work on your insults, though: I’m not sure you know what Klinefelter Syndrome is. I do know, and it wasn’t an insult, it was a joke on your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/406 "2015-10-24T17:31:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > For the White Knights/male feminists, I’m going to throw you a lifeline. > > Ever wonder why you’re in the friendzone? > > Feminists don’t like male feminists. The Friendzone isn’t something that just happens to men, it happens to people of all genders. I know two women who are involuntarily single and celibate. Both are brilliant but unconventionally attractive. Both are in the ‘friendzone’ of every man they know because they are too smart and successful. Hetro men treat the like men, and the very thought of dating one of these women sends shutters though straight men. Neither is ugly, both are wicked cool people, but men won’t touch them. Wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/407 "2015-10-24T20:38:58Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > The Friendzone isn’t something that just happens to men, it happens to people of all genders. > > I know two women who are involuntarily single and celibate. Both are brilliant but unconventionally attractive. Both are in the ‘friendzone’ of every man they know because they are too smart and successful. Hetro men treat the like men, and the very thought of dating one of these women sends shutters though straight men. Neither is ugly, both are wicked cool people, but men won’t touch them. Wonder why? When men are in the friend zone, is it because they are too smart and successful? ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/408 "2015-10-24T20:45:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I wasn’t sure, since you seemed to think that saying the opposite would be some kind of insult on par with the original statement, when the original statement is, in fact, true - men _are_ genetically deficient compared to women, just in the sense of having less of the damn stuff. I do recall reading _(possibly on this forum)_ that women having two XX chromosomes has an averaging effect, which isn’t always advantageous. For example more women are of average intelligence with a narrower bell curve at each end, there are more very unintelligent men as well as more super-smart men than there are women at either extreme because if a man has the ‘super-smart’ gene on his X chromosome then it is expressed, if a woman has the ‘super-smart’ gene on one X chromosome but ‘average smart’ on the other then the effect is a lower level of intelligence overall. I am not a geneticist so take that for what its worth. But I do think describing one sex or the other as ‘inferior’ is unhelpful to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/409 "2015-10-24T20:58:47Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > The Friendzone isn’t something that just happens to men, it happens to people of all genders. > > I know two women who are involuntarily single and celibate. Both are brilliant but unconventionally attractive. Both are in the ‘friendzone’ of every man they know because they are too smart and successful. Hetro men treat the like men, and the very thought of dating one of these women sends shutters though straight men. Neither is ugly, both are wicked cool people, but men won’t touch them. Wonder why? They wont make the first move? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/410 "2015-10-24T21:58:55Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > I do recall reading _(possibly on this forum)_ that women having two XX chromosomes has an averaging effect, which isn’t always advantageous. For example more women are of average intelligence with a narrower bell curve at each end, there are more very unintelligent men as well as more super-smart men than there are women at either extreme because if a man has the ‘super-smart’ gene on his X chromosome then it is expressed, if a woman has the ‘super-smart’ gene on one X chromosome but ‘average smart’ on the other then the effect is a lower level of intelligence overall. > > I am not a geneticist so take that for what its worth. But I do think describing one sex or the other as ‘inferior’ is unhelpful to say the least. You must not be a feminist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/411 "2015-10-24T22:52:52Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You must not be a feminist. Have you considered that maybe the best sources for who really is and isn’t a feminist aren’t people who really, really don’t like feminism? Maybe, just as Jews can tell you more about Judaism than people who hate Jews, feminists can tell you more about feminism than people who hate feminism? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/412 "2015-10-24T23:19:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Have you considered that maybe the best sources for who really is and isn’t a feminist aren’t people who really, really don’t like feminism? You’re talking to someone who thought _The Onion_ was a good source. He’s not interested in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/413 "2015-10-25T03:51:11Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > You’re talking to someone who thought _The Onion_ was a good source. He’s not interested in reality. I read that _Onion_ article, too. > [@](#): > > And here’s the thing: When you finally do come across one of the good guys out there, why does it always turn out that he’s either taken, gay, dead, or available? Yes, it’s clearly satirical, but satire only really works if it’s got some connection to current trends or attitudes. I wouldn’t cite _The Daily Show_ as a literal source of news, but sometimes you can illuminate things with satire better than with straight reporting. That _Onion_ piece is riffing on some sort of theme; either that men are criticized no matter what they do, or that women have unrealistic expectations that aren’t (and indeed, can’t) be fulfilled. It’s not a terribly flattering portrait either way, but it does say something. Now, whether **LinusK** meant for it to be taken in that way, I don’t know. If he did, it was certainly his obligation to provide some context rather than just a link. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/414 "2015-10-25T04:38:00Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > They wont make the first move? Because they are “unconventionally attractive” which means ugly. Jane seem to think it’s because they’re too smart and successful, but it’s probably the unattractive part. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/415 "2015-10-25T04:47:55Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Now, whether **LinusK** meant for it to be taken in that way, I don’t know. If he did, it was certainly his obligation to provide some context rather than just a link. I doubt he was capable of providing context; he probably didn’t even read the _Onion_ article. He obviously doesn’t put much thought into the things he cuts and pastes into his posts here. That’s why his sources often don’t support his claims and/or have [nothing to do with the post he’s responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18788544#post18788544). My pet theory is that **LinusK** is actually a bot, but it’s more likely that he’s simply copying quotes and links from some other forum and rarely bothers to look at the original source himself. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/416 "2015-10-25T06:00:48Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I doubt he was capable of providing context; he probably didn’t even read the _Onion_ article. He obviously doesn’t put much thought into the things he cuts and pastes into his posts here. That’s why his sources often don’t support his claims and/or have [nothing to do with the post he’s responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18788544#post18788544). > > My pet theory is that **LinusK** is actually a bot, but it’s more likely that he’s simply copying quotes and links from some other forum and rarely bothers to look at the original source himself. Yeah, there are some interesting issues involved here, like disparate treatment in the criminal justice system or decreasing educational opportunities, but they aren’t being well presented by the OP. I guess I just hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/417 "2015-10-25T08:44:43Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You must not be a feminist. I’m not sure what you mean by that. I don’t like using that term because it comes with too much baggage I’m not comfortable with and I’m not fond of labels in general, I would probably describe myself as a Humanist _(for the here and now)_ and Transhumanist _(aspirations for the future)_. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/418 "2015-10-25T13:53:40Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I read that _Onion_ article, too.Yes, it’s clearly satirical, but satire only really works if it’s got some connection to current trends or attitudes. I wouldn’t cite _The Daily Show_ as a literal source of news, but sometimes you can illuminate things with satire better than with straight reporting. That _Onion_ piece is riffing on some sort of theme; either that men are criticized no matter what they do, or that women have unrealistic expectations that aren’t (and indeed, can’t) be fulfilled. It’s not a terribly flattering portrait either way, but it does say something. > > Now, whether **LinusK** meant for it to be taken in that way, I don’t know. If he did, it was certainly his obligation to provide some context rather than just a link. Nothing kills a joke like explaining it first. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/419 "2015-10-25T15:13:32Z")
Some of you have asked **LinusK** what he’s trying to accomplish with this thread. I’m sure you’ve noticed he hasn’t provided an answer. This may be the closest we’ll ever get to an honest explanation of his motives: > [@LinusK](#): > > Nothing kills a joke like explaining it first. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/420 "2015-10-25T19:14:18Z")
So perhaps if we find these issues interesting, we need to start our own threads, and leave this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=22)