# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/441 "2015-10-27T00:29:52Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > All I was trying to say was that the “Friendzone” for what ever reason, isn’t limited to something women do to men. It happens to both men and women, but only women get blamed for putting men in the Friendzone. I don’t think that’s generally true. Being a guy in a woman’s friend zone is widely considered to be self inflicted. Women get shit over friend zoning a guy when they do one of two things. First happens when what she says she wants and what she really wants don’t overlap, i.e. she just wants to meet a “nice guy”, then nice guy enters the picture and she has no romantic interest what so ever and finds an asshole to date instead. Second one is more obvious and that’s when she uses the guy pining for her. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/442 "2015-10-27T01:47:04Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Women get shit over friend zoning a guy when they do one of two things. First happens when what she says she wants and what she really wants don’t overlap, i.e. she just wants to meet a “nice guy”, then nice guy enters the picture and she has no romantic interest what so ever and finds an asshole to date instead. Any guy (anybody at all, actually) who is too dumb or naive to understand that when somebody says _“I just want to meet a nice [person]”_, what they really mean is _“I just want to meet a nice [person] THAT I’M ATTRACTED TO”_ is not mature enough to be dating. Nobody should “get shit” for not dating somebody they don’t happen to be attracted to. No matter how “nice” that person claims to be. No matter how assiduously that person pretends to be their friend in the hopes of somehow someday awakening their romantic interest. No matter how bitterly that person resents their being more attracted to somebody else who is therefore described by that person as an “asshole”. (And gosh, doesn’t that person sound “nice”, by the way? I mean, why **wouldn’t** anybody be eager to date a [del]bitter[/del] [del]manipulative[/del] [del]resentful[/del] nice person like that?) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/443 "2015-10-27T02:10:23Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > That’s fine, but it’s not an extremist opinion. It’s from The Chronicle of Higher Education, not some random poster on an internet forum. According to Wikipedia, it is “a major news service in United States academic affairs.” You really don’t seem able to tell the difference between a publication publishing an opinion piece by an unaffiliated individual, whose words express nobody’s views but their own, and publishing an editorial which officially endorses a particular opinion on the part of that publication. Similar opinion pieces contributed by individuals to the _Chronicle_’s “Commentary” section have expressed the individual opinions that guarantee games in football should be prohibited, that students should be directly subsidized for college tuition, that “on armed campuses we will see a dramatic rise in grade-point averages all around”, that “by profiting from Big Oil, the university endowment casts a very public vote for short-term, short-sighted profit”, and many other statements that lots of reasonable people can disagree with. Do you imagine that the magazine itself is officially endorsing or agreeing with all or any of those statements? Your beef is not actually with the _Chronicle_ but with the author of that individual opinion article. But I guess you think it makes you look more oppressed if you whine about how a big important academic publication is disparaging men, rather than the more accurate but less attention-grabbing version that an individual anthropology professor that most people have never heard of is disparaging men. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/444 "2015-10-27T02:20:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody should “get shit” for not dating somebody they don’t happen to be attracted to. No, but they should be honest with themselves about why they’re doing it. If the guy then chooses not to continue the friendship, he shouldn’t get shit for it either, nor be called shallow. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/445 "2015-10-27T02:25:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Any guy (anybody at all, actually) who is too dumb or naive to understand that when somebody says _“I just want to meet a nice [person]”_, what they really mean is _“I just want to meet a nice [person] THAT I’M ATTRACTED TO”_ is not mature enough to be dating. I’m going to disagree with you there, just a bit. When people say, “I just want a nice person,” what I think they really mean is, “The science of attraction is incredibly complex and poorly understood at best, and is made up of hundreds, if not thousands, of overlapping and contradictory criteria, the bulk of which are entirely subconscious, so I’m just going to say ‘nice’ because I’m filling out an online dating survey, not writing a dissertation on sociology.” As an anecdotal corollary, I’ve met very few people who I would personally think of as “nice,” who have had been unable to find someone to be with. Equally, I’ve met very few people who described _themselves_ as “nice” - particularly in the context of dating - who weren’t actually a bit of an asshole. If you’re one of those “nice guys” who just can’t get laid, consider which of these scenarios is more likely: “Most women are dishonest about what they want from relationships.” Versus: “You’re not actually all that nice.” I know where I’d put _my_ money. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/446 "2015-10-27T03:37:19Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Huh? It’s right there in your post. Or do you mean “patriarchy,” not friendzone. OK, no offense intended. But it really does sound like your friends are blaming the status quo, and in a thread about feminism, that status quo has a accepted name. I meant the quote “Because of the pigtriarchy”. I never said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/447 "2015-10-27T06:41:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > No, but they should be honest with themselves about why they’re doing it. If the guy then chooses not to continue the friendship, he shouldn’t get shit for it either, nor be called shallow. Guys who are friends with girls because they hope it’ll turn into something romantic, are lousy friends and not nice people. Especially if she has already turned him down once already. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/448 "2015-10-27T06:58:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Guys who are friends with girls because they hope it’ll turn into something romantic, are lousy friends and not nice people. Especially if she has already turned him down once already. That’s the kind of thing I meant; being accused of only pretending to be friends in order to get in to her pants. It seems to be just assumed that guys are self-centered and insincere. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/449 "2015-10-27T08:51:51Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’s the kind of thing I meant; being accused of only pretending to be friends in order to get in to her pants. It seems to be just assumed that guys are self-centered and insincere. Instead of self-centered they’re called sluts and whores and instead of insincere they’re called disloyal and gold diggers – which kinda mean the same. Can’t really see men have it worse in the gender stereotypical insult department. There’s no problem with problem with being insincere btw. Maybe a guy just wants to have a fun night and fuck a girl, but for some reason don’t want to make a gf out of her, perhaps she’s not girlfriend material. When nothing more is explicitly promised then that’s perfectly fine. Berating men for doing that is the same as berating girls for leading on but not delivering. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/450 "2015-10-27T08:58:42Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > I meant the quote “Because of the pigtriarchy”. I never said anything like that. Yea, I see. You know, when you’re being quoted, it appears in a box with your name in it. Just like above. Otherwise it’s a common conversation device known as paraphrasing. You’ve used the quote box for me, so it’s obvious that you already can understand normal thread construction. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/451 "2015-10-27T09:53:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Instead of self-centered they’re called sluts and whores and instead of insincere they’re called disloyal and gold diggers – which kinda mean the same. Can’t really see men have it worse in the gender stereotypical insult department. I’m not sure what that has to do with the post you quoted; I haven’t leveled any of those insults at anyone, or defended them, or said that one gender has it worse than the other. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/452 "2015-10-27T12:36:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Because they are “unconventionally attractive” which means ugly. Jane seem to think it’s because they’re too smart and successful, but it’s probably the unattractive part. Both men and women are selective about who they’ll consider for sexual partners. For men it’s pretty straight-forward: they generally limit themselves to women they find physically attractive. For women it’s both more complicated and more covert. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/453 "2015-10-27T12:40:35Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > So perhaps if we find these issues interesting, we need to start our own threads, and leave this one. But you won’t. You need a bad guy to circle around. A thread without an antagonist is like a story without a villain: boring. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/454 "2015-10-27T12:47:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Quote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Yes, I know. I read the article: men are genetically deficient. > > I wasn’t sure, since you seemed to think that saying the opposite would be some kind of insult on par with the original statement, when the original statement is, in fact, true - men are genetically deficient compared to women, just in the sense of having less of the damn stuff. > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > You need to work on your insults, though: I’m not sure you know what Klinefelter Syndrome is. > > I do know, and it wasn’t an insult, it was a joke on your statement. Then your “joke” doesn’t work: men with two x’s do in fact have a genetic disorder. That’s why it’s called a “syndrome”. It’s sad if you’re a man, and you actually believe that being male is a genetic disorder. You have my sympathy. If you’re a woman: well, you’re just another feminist. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/455 "2015-10-27T12:49:19Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > No, but they should be honest with themselves about why they’re doing it. If the guy then chooses not to continue the friendship, he shouldn’t get shit for it either, nor be called shallow. Nobody cares who you are friends with. You are only going to get shit if you spend all day complaining, whining and talking smack about a woman that is supposably your friend, because she doesn’t want to sleep with you. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/456 "2015-10-27T12:50:26Z")
Well worth your time: [THE RED PILL - a documentary film](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cassiejaye/the-red-pill-a-documentary-film/comments). (And it’s less than 10 minutes.) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/457 "2015-10-27T12:53:19Z")
nn ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/458 "2015-10-27T15:12:51Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Both men and women are selective about who they’ll consider for sexual partners. > > For men it’s pretty straight-forward: they generally limit themselves to women they find physically attractive. As a man, I find that simplistic and unfair. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/459 "2015-10-27T15:14:10Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You must not be a feminist. Or a True Scotsman! (if you don’t get that, look it up) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/460 "2015-10-27T17:21:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > As a man, I find that simplistic and unfair. Even, if I might be so bold, bigoted. Almost misandrist. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=24)