# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/41 "2015-09-27T12:03:23Z")
> [@camille](#): > > My bold. That is the basic credo of feminism, regardless of how someone self identifies. I do not agree with everything every other feminist says or does, and it does not preclude me from identifying as a feminist. Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology; some people do not understand that. > > Most of these “I don’t need feminism because…” selfies on that site are strawman arguments. I can’t help but notice that many of them are common MRA memes. Coincidence? No, that’s not the way the world works. We’ve had this discussion before. You cannot one day go crazy about man spreading, rape culture and kangaroo courts, the Patriarchy, slut walks, privilege and oppression Olympics, girl quotas and what else is the fancy du jour. And then the next day when confronted with people who don’t subscribe to such ideologies, claim that they’re obviously mistaken since feminism is nothing less and nothing more than just equality, and only knuckledraggin Neanderthalers and silly brainwashed girls don’t support this. I’m sorry that your kind of feminism has been hijacked by people with other ideologies and agendas. But it has. Fine if you want to turn feminism back its core values and strip all the 3rd wave nonsense, but that’s going to be some struggle and you’re likely going to be accused of exactly them same as you accuse these young women of. MRAs are pathetic mainly because they’ve decided to compete with feminists in the oppression Olympics. Nothing gets a MRA going quite like telling him to quit whining and man the fuck up. They are obnoxious and have infested the internet over the last couple of years. Whenever someone mentions a girl doing something or other, there’s this pathetic chorus of boys going: what if the genders were reversed. Well they aren’t and men and women aren’t the same so it’s not comparable if they were. Like I was poking around on youtube the other week and stumbled on this innocent video: [11 year old KID Picking Up GIRLS Prank](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYvApb8CPnk) And there they are: _“I just realized people think it’s cute to see an 11 year old boy pick up older women but seeing an 11 year old girl pick up older men is just straight up creepy as hell XD”_, _“do this the other way around too!11 year old girl picking up guys.i would LOVE to see the reactions“_ wha wha wha. The same with FGM. Cannot have a discussion on it without some guy coming in with circumcision in the USA. And God help you if you enter into a thread where a female teacher has being having sex with a student of hers. MRA suck so bad it hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/42 "2015-09-27T12:16:39Z")
A feminist take on anti-feminists. I think it’s spot on. > **[A short history of "feminist" anti-feminists.](https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/a-short-history-of-feminist-anti-feminists.html)** > > Sarah Palin made quite the splash recently with her comments to the anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List about conservative women reclaiming... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/43 "2015-09-27T12:22:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Whenever someone mentions a girl doing something or other, there’s this pathetic chorus of boys going: what if the genders were reversed. Well they aren’t and men and women aren’t the same so it’s not comparable if they were. You’re talking about something else entirely, but you’ve got me wondering: if someone says _“I believe males and females should compete against each other in sports, rather than having separate competitions; I figure the men will usually win pretty easily, but, hey, that’s what it means to be treated as equals”_ – would that be a feminist position, or an MRA position? Or both? Or neither? That’s not snark; I genuinely don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/44 "2015-09-27T12:24:10Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, but, there are some, for lack of a better term, personality differences between men that are based on genetics and gender? Or is it you position that all differences between men and women are cultural and learned, ie, not natural. I think it is a combination of forces. Sure, but when it comes to individuals there is clearly a range, and it should be individual inclination rather than plumbing that decides your choices. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/45 "2015-09-27T12:50:02Z")
Re: the identity thing: How many people here identify as Abolitionists? Yeah, that’s what I thought. The thing with feminism in its mere form is that it’s won. It has achieved indomitable fixation in most of the U.S. To within a standard deviation, everyone agrees that women should have equal rights and equal responsibilities. Of course, there are individual exceptions and enclaves of disagreement, but the issue has been settled. The problem is that for a lot of people, feminism is a whole lot more than those basic principles, as stated. And there are a certain number of very loud people who are being granted a microphone and a platform who are claiming, quite credibly, that feminism is not about equal treatment and equal opportunity. This goes back to the fundamental group identity problem. Groups are a thing humans enforce on the world, and political labels are even more so. There is no grand unified thing called feminism; there’s just a bunch of people with a bunch of beliefs, and a bunch of other people sorting some of those people into the bucket of ‘feminist’ based on various and differing rubrics. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/46 "2015-09-27T13:18:08Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A feminist take on anti-feminists. I think it’s spot on. Another [article](http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-dont-support-feminism-if-it-means-murdering-all--37301) on the same topic. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/47 "2015-09-27T13:37:26Z")
> [@camille](#): > > These young women are ignorant of history and take the things feminists fought for and achieved for granted. Put them back in time to how things were for women in the recent past and then see how they feel about the need for feminism. These women are _obviously_ talking about 3rd wave gender feminism. 3rd wave gender feminism, unlike feminism from generations past, is intellectually dishonest and deliberately obnoxious. I’m not surprised these young women don’t want to be associated with it. By equating their opposition to 3rd wave gender feminism with opposition to _all_ feminism, you’re just straw-manning them. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/48 "2015-09-27T13:42:55Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And the main point again is that, no matter the choice, it is valid and should not be denied or dismissed solely because of the gender. If a man enjoys cooking and cleaning the house, he should not be judged or persuaded to stop doing it once he marries or mocked. Similar, a woman should not be persuaded to be a housekeeper if she prefers to do something else. Granted, I also believe everyone should have basic skills on cooking and household chores. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Sure, but when it comes to individuals there is clearly a range, and it should be individual inclination rather than plumbing that decides your choices. But… isn’t that what (most) of the women on that website are saying? They like feminine qualities and choose to embrace them. (f you want to substitute the word role for quality that is fine. Role gives more credence to cultural influence) ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/49 "2015-09-27T13:43:28Z")
I support equality , whilst recognizing differences, but I can’t say I support feminism. The reason is that I simply disagree with with the mainstream feminist views on firstly how this should be achieved and secondly where we currently are in terms of equality. Also I do feel that feminism as a movement does pander to misandry at times(when has any movement that is about the rights/concerns of a strictly defined group of people not pandered to prejudice against people outside of that group at times). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/50 "2015-09-27T13:48:51Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I think it is a combination, but I think genetics/hormones/innateness is less contributing than cultural and learned. I think I probably agree. Let’s say you are trapped out in the woods in Montana. (I will be dramatic). It has been a harsh winter and the wolves are hungry. You are their potential diner and they are stalking/pursuing you. Which would you rather have with you: 1- a 1700’s Native American woman who has grown up with such hardship and has faced the same or similar problems before. 2- A civil engineer that is 32 years old and exercises regularly and loves “Eating red meat and watching football” but has no first hand experience with the wilderness or violence. I think I’d take the first choice without much hesitation… ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/51 "2015-09-27T14:03:01Z")
**Velocity, Grumman, John Mace, Robert163** and anyone I missed: I think the discussion between the difference between liberalism and libertarianism is an interesting one, but it deserves it’s own thread. So I made one here: > **[Libertarianism vs liberalism](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=770098)** > > This is an x-post from a different thread. For context: Velocity: Liberals and conservatives both tend to be authoritarian. LinusK: I disagree: in my opinion, liberals are anti-authoritarian. Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which... I hope you all and anyone who is interested will comment there. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/52 "2015-09-27T14:08:14Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > **Velocity, Grumman, John Mace, Robert163** and anyone I missed: I think the discussion between the difference between liberalism and libertarianism is an interesting one, but it deserves it’s own thread. So I made one here: > > [Libertarianism vs liberalism - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=770098) > > I hope you all and anyone who is interested will comment there. I’m actually glad to comment on that thread but I don’t necessarily think this thread is/was hijacked into a thread about libertarianism… ooops… yes that was a mini hijack. Sorry. I like the new thread BTW… ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/53 "2015-09-27T14:10:55Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > These women are _obviously_ talking about 3rd wave gender feminism. 3rd wave gender feminism, unlike feminism from generations past, is intellectually dishonest and deliberately obnoxious. I’m not surprised these young women don’t want to be associated with it. By equating their opposition to 3rd wave gender feminism with opposition to _all_ feminism, you’re just straw-manning them. But theyre strawwomanning themselves by labelling their “anti3rdwaveism” as “antifeminism”. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/54 "2015-09-27T14:22:29Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > But they’re strawwomanning themselves by labelling their “anti3rdwaveism” as “antifeminism”. But 3rd wave feminism is the kind of feminism that they know and deal with. Yeah, maybe they could be more specific, but it’s pretty obvious what kind of feminism they’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/55 "2015-09-27T14:27:41Z")
No it isnt. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/56 "2015-09-27T14:37:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There are two groups of women anti-feminists I’ve seen. The ones that take that label because they think feminism refers only to the misandrist part of the movement–I disagree with them, but I have no problem with them. And then there are the ones that say women should be submissive and shit like that. Those I view as either self-hating women or those duped by the patriarchy. > > If the way forward is to give up the name feminism, fine–though I’m trying to make that not the case–but I hate seeing them partner with those who want to pull us back to the 1950s. People are social animals - meaning they’re hierarchal by nature. A lawyer, for example, might be “submissive” to a judge. But not submissive to other lawyers. A bus driver might not have an especially high-status job, but he’s dominant within his sphere of influence. A cop might be submissive with her boss, but not submissive when she’s making an arrest. Even in the social arena, there is often someone in a social group who is dominant. Perhaps the person who makes the plans. Or decides when and where everyone’s going to go, and what they’ll do when they get there. Perhaps she’s the one everyone listens to, when she talks. Even in friendships, one friend is often more dominant than the other. Sexual relationships are no different. So far as I’m concerned, if people in an LTR want something other than perfect equality in one or more aspects of their relationship, there’s no sense in shaming them for it. It has absolutely nothing to do with returning to the 1950’s. It has to do with freedom, including the freedom to do or be what feminists don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/57 "2015-09-27T14:39:00Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > No it isn’t. Well why would these young women be opposed to the kind of feminism that got them the vote? Why would they oppose the kind of feminism that got them workplace protections and maternity leave? It seems to me, reading their posts, that what they’re essentially saying three things: 1. We’ve already got all the important stuff. 2. I can look after myself. 3. Feminism, as it is practised today among people of my age group, is obnoxious and intellectually dishonest. You can see re-iterations of one or all of these points over and over again throughout the blog that **LinusK** linked to. It seems to me that, in context, it’s perfectly clear what kind of feminism these young women are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/58 "2015-09-27T14:44:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, and feminism isn’t about preventing women from being wives and mothers and housekeepers and cooks or wearing dresses. > > It’s about making such life choices a genuine _choice_ and not something _forced_ on women. > > Of course, then you get people involved and things get messy. Feminism is about choices for women? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/59 "2015-09-27T15:06:51Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > \People can choose what to do and what they like, that is a main point of feminism. That’s a proposition that’s pretty hard to disagree with. In fact, I suspect close to 100% of people would get behind it. It’s nice to know that “the patriarchy” and “rape culture” and slutwalks and Emma Sulkowicz and Anita Sarkeesian and the prosecution of Gregory Elliot have nothing to do with feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/60 "2015-09-27T15:18:49Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A feminist take on anti-feminists. I think it’s spot on. > > [A short history of "feminist" anti-feminists.](http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/06/a_short_history_of_feminist_antifeminists.html) Thanks for the link, that cleared up some stuff for me and put it into a bigger picture. (i.e. some ignorance fought here) > [@camille](#): > > My bold. That is the basic credo of feminism, regardless of how someone self identifies. I do not agree with everything every other feminist says or does, and it does not preclude me from identifying as a feminist. Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology; some people do not understand that. > > Most of these “I don’t need feminism because…” selfies on that site are strawman arguments. I can’t help but notice that many of them are common MRA memes. Coincidence? > > These young women are ignorant of history and take the things feminists fought for and achieved for granted. Put them back in time to how things were for women in the recent past and then see how they feel about the need for feminism. > > Gains in equality aren’t something that can be achieved and then forgotten. There is no guarantee that any of the gains made by feminists are permanent, especially when there are anti-feminists who scapegoat feminism for every problem men face today. > > These people seem to feel that women should take a step back in order to improve the situation for men, instead of realizing that the system (and the patriarchy is part of that) is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - men and women alike. Should women stop going to college in greater numbers in order to improve that stats for men? Avoid high paying jobs so men have less competition? Why don’t these anti-feminists work to help disadvantaged men, instead of expending all their energy trying to pull women down? > > Of course, this has all been said before, and will probably be ignored yet again. The OP likes to start threads on this topic over and over again, seemingly hoping for different results. There is a word for that behavior. I’m curious to see if this new thread will inspire yet more new members with MRA/anti-feminist leanings to post and gift us with their pearls of wisdom. Your post helped me evolve my opinion somewhat so it did have some effect, but unfortunately I think you are correct about the OP agenda. Really appreciate your post though and agree 100%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=4)