# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/681 "2015-11-04T17:10:42Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Have I made claims about what feminists believe or advocate? Yup. > [@Jack of Words in post 496](#): > > Unless you’re a feminist, of course, in which case all sex is oppression, right? > [@Jack of Words in post 516](#): > > […] ‘equality’ isn’t a synonym for equality when feminists use it. It’s a whole other word meaning ‘half of yours for me, and all of mine’s my own’. > [@Jack of Words in post 531](#): > > […] NOW (and other feminist groups) oppose any dilution (by sharing, by equality) of the power of the female parent. > [@Jack of Words in post 579](#): > > Feminists share a similarly ludicrous foundation for their ideology. If you don’t believe christ died for your sins, you’re not a christian. If you don’t believe that men are inherently responsible for a system that purposefully oppresses women, you’re not a feminist. > [@Jack of Words in post 585](#): > > […] if you don’t believe that [del]christ died for our sins[/del] all men are inherently responsible for a constructed universal system that purposefully oppresses women, then you’re _not_ a feminist. > [@Jack of Words in post 593](#): > > I’m most definitely not a feminist (partly because I don’t redefine ‘equality’ as a one-sided possibility, or blame the other ‘side’ for the lack of it). > [@Jack of Words in post 605](#): > > Feminists are extremists. […] Feminists endeavour to control the narrative and focus, to create a distorted picture, with an aim that is no sense related to ‘equality’. > [@Jack of Words in post 616](#): > > It seems to me the moderation of this discussion shares much with…let’s say ‘extremist’, if it will help…feminist fascination with censorship and the suppression of opposing views. > [@Jack of Words in post 661](#): > > […] feminism has risen (or sunk) to the status of a religion in the minds of its adherents. Irrational beliefs held as ‘revealed truths’ that cannot be challenged […] > [@Jack of Words](#): > > Examples abound in this thread alone of self-identified feminists demonstrating their pro-woman/anti-man bias. > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Cite? Verbatim quotes with explicit poster attributions and post numbers, please. > > Tell you what, when I get a moment […] I’ll post it. Complete with explicit poster attribution and post numbers Off we go, then. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/682 "2015-11-04T17:19:55Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > I can’t find you saying that if women want equality (in any given area) then they need to take responsibility in that area. Like, eg, voting/conscription. I’m taking double standards as pro-women/anti-men, where that is shown by the varying standards. [Women join battle on all-male draft](http://www.nytimes.com/1981/03/22/us/women-join-battle-on-all-male-draft.html) > [@](#): > > [A]s Eleanor Smeal, the president of the National Organization for Women, observed the other day, when she lobbies state legislatures in behalf of the equal rights amendment, male legislators frequently say to her, ‘‘When you women fight in a war, then we’ll talk about equal rights.’’ > > That ‘‘argument of entitlement,’’ as Mrs. Smeal calls it, was one of the factors that persuaded her that exclusion from the draft hurt the interests of women. > > ‘‘Men are at risk in a way that women are not,’’ she said. ‘‘That risk entitles men to certain privileges and benefits.’’ Ever since ancient Egypt, she said, ‘‘the secondary class has not been given the right to serve in the military.’’ > > By excluding women even from registration, Mrs. Smeal continued, ‘‘the Government says that every man, regardless of any disability, must register, but that all women, regardless of competency, cannot.’’ The distinction creates the ‘‘myth that all men are more competent than all women,’’ she said, adding, ''It’s a major institution of our society saying: ‘You can’t cut the mustard.’ ‘’ > > The National Organization for Women’s brief cites a number of internal military studies showing that women, who now make up 8 percent of the armed forces, generally perform well. The Department of Defense told Congress in 1979 that women, when ‘‘properly trained and selected, have the physical and mental ability to serve in the entire range of military classifications.’’ > > ‘‘Compulsory universal military service is central to the concept of citizenship in a democracy,’’ the brief filed by NOW asserts. The brief says that ‘‘devastating longterm psychological and political repercussions’’ result from the exclusion of women ‘‘from the compulsory involvement in the community’s survival that is perceived as entitling people to lead it and to derive from it the full rights and privileges of citizenship.’’ > > A similar argument is the theme of a second brief filed, as friends of the court, by 12 other women’s organizations, including the League of Women Voters and the National Federation of Business and Professional Women’s Clubs. > > Exclusion of women from draft registration, the brief says, ‘‘is based solely on archaic notions of women’s role in society’’ and ‘‘echoes the stereotypic notions about women’s proper place in society that in the past promoted ‘protective’ labor laws and the exclusion of women from juries.’’ > > ‘‘Until women assume their equal share of societal obligations,’’ the brief says, ‘‘they will retain their inferior status.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/683 "2015-11-04T17:28:40Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Examples abound in this thread alone of self-identified feminists demonstrating their pro-woman/anti-man bias. […] Hmm, so your “cites” consist of (1) a poster using the phrase “women’s equality issues”, (2) a poster commenting that they’re involved in outreach to girls in STEM fields, (3) the same poster noting that a male colleague objected to a woman director, (4) the same poster making a statement in which you think you can read a biased “subtext”, (5) my own reference to male equality in parental roles in the context of a discussion specifically about alleged lack of male equality in parental roles, (6) the abovementioned second poster questioning the motives of MRAs’ focus on custody issues, which you completely gratuitously choose to interpret as the claim that “fathers want control” whereas “mothers are saintly self-sacrificers”, which the poster never said or implied. These are the examples you’ve managed to come up with of posters in this thread allegedly “demonstrating their pro-woman/anti-man bias”. :dubious: > [@Jack of Words](#): > > I’m bored now. […] I expect nothing better than this in response: > > > [@](#): > > > > Rubbish. > > > > More rubbish. > > > > Butt-hurt rubbish. Well, I have to admit that these feeble attempts to support your original absurd assertion certainly **deserved** nothing better than that in response. Good on you for being self-aware enough to realize it, if only belatedly. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/684 "2015-11-04T18:51:22Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [Women join battle on all-male draft](http://www.nytimes.com/1981/03/22/us/women-join-battle-on-all-male-draft.html) Funny - this article is from 1981 and Jack of Words still hasn’t noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/685 "2015-11-04T20:26:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Hmm, so your “cites” consist of > (1) a poster using the phrase “women’s equality issues”, > (2) a poster commenting that they’re involved in outreach to girls in STEM fields, > (3) the same poster noting that a male colleague objected to a woman director, > (4) the same poster making a statement in which you think you can read a biased “subtext”, > (5) my own reference to male equality in parental roles in the context of a discussion specifically about alleged lack of male equality in parental roles, > (6) the abovementioned second poster questioning the motives of MRAs’ focus on custody issues, which you completely gratuitously choose to interpret as the claim that “fathers want control” whereas “mothers are saintly self-sacrificers”, which the poster never said or implied. > > These are the examples you’ve managed to come up with of posters in this thread allegedly “demonstrating their pro-woman/anti-man bias”. :dubious: > > Well, I have to admit that these feeble attempts to support your original absurd assertion certainly **deserved** nothing better than that in response. Good on you for being self-aware enough to realize it, if only belatedly. And you, in return, have failed to support your own assertions. I’m unsure why you think _listing_ the few examples I fetched (we can extrapolate that there are many more) in any way refutes them. I was right though, that ‘rubbish rubbish rubbish’ would be breadth and depth of the feminist contribution to ‘adult, intelligent debate’. I admire your chutzpah in suggesting the prediction of that response was somehow ‘self’ awareness… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/686 "2015-11-04T20:30:39Z")
Everyone on both sides will calm down. Don’t make me closed this thread because I will! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/687 "2015-11-04T20:34:26Z")
I Just came across an interesting article about women’s groups campaigning to get women drafted in the US. It’s from a good few years ago, and yet they still haven’t achieved it. Fancy that - when feminists can get good men sacked for a shirt or a quip overnight, they can’t ‘draft’ enough support for the draft. The article makes for interesting reading: \*Feminist groups did not participate in the lower court proceedings, and for many the issue posed a dilemma. Many of the groups, including the National Organization for Women, which calls itself the largest feminist organization in the world, were opposed to any draft. The notion that the proposed equal rights amendment might require that women fight alongside men has long been raised by opponents of the amendment, a fact that injected political risk to any focus of attention on the issue. On the other hand, as Eleanor Smeal, the president of the National Organization for Women, observed the other day, when she lobbies state legislatures in behalf of the equal rights amendment, male legislators frequently say to her, ‘‘When you women fight in a war, then we’ll talk about equal rights.’’ ‘Argument of Entitlement’ That ‘‘argument of entitlement,’’ as Mrs. Smeal calls it, was one of the factors that persuaded her that exclusion from the draft hurt the interests of women.\* Fascinating stuff. NOW on record as opposed to equality when they don’t want it, and only coming round to the idea when they were apparently surprised by the argument that equality should be applied equally. Fortunately for all those feminists who’d rather fight on twitter than the front line, NOW have failed to achieve that particular equality that they reluctantly accepted the need for decades ago. Bah, patriarchy! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/688 "2015-11-04T20:41:46Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > I Just came across an interesting article about women’s groups campaigning to get women drafted in the US. It’s from a good few years ago, and yet they still haven’t achieved it. Fancy that - when feminists can get good men sacked for a shirt or a quip overnight, they can’t ‘draft’ enough support for the draft. I’d say that claiming that feminists don’t support drafting women, and then learning that the leading feminist group has supported it since 1981, and then pretending you found out (and ignoring the fact that you were wrong about it) and then blaming them for not getting it passed is desperate and craven. It’s been 30+ years since Smeal said this, yet you still can’t bear to admit that NOW supports drafting women, and you have to dwell on the fact that it didn’t take this position until freakin’ 1981. Do you go around bashing men for all the stupid arguments against letting women vote, and for not doing it until 1920 too? Just be a man (so to speak) and admit you were wrong about something. Jeez. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/689 "2015-11-04T20:49:46Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/690 "2015-11-04T20:50:26Z")
That’s that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=34)