# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/61 "2015-09-27T15:26:47Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > That’s a proposition that’s pretty hard to disagree with. In fact, I suspect close to 100% of people would get behind it. > > It’s nice to know that “the patriarchy” and “rape culture” and slutwalks and Emma Sulkowicz and Anita Sarkeesian and the prosecution of Gregory Elliot have nothing to do with feminism. Not sure what you were going for there :dubious: , but my statement does not exclude the existence of patriarchy and rape culture. I am less knowledgeable in the other topics you mentioned. I don’t understand the disdain for the use of the word patriarchy. Here is a [dictionary](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriarchy) definition and [wikipedia entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy). I do believe it exists, and it is precisely the way a society is structured that prevents or denies women and men the capacity to chose what they want to do with their lives. You may not want to call that system patriarchy for whatever reason I don’t understand, but it is this that prevents you, a man, from pursuing some things you may be interested. It is not a fair system for most men or women. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/62 "2015-09-27T15:50:19Z")
So i followed the link, and hav to conclude, the answer is: “a bunch of stupid cunts” ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/63 "2015-09-27T15:58:27Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > So i followed the link, and hav to conclude, the answer is: > “a bunch of stupid cunts” That attitude is kinda pretty much what they’re protesting, tbh. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/64 "2015-09-27T16:00:53Z")
What i see is “i is not teh feminist becoz [random non-sequitur]” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/65 "2015-09-27T16:15:12Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > As a single entity Feminism lost its way decades ago - fwiw, I would have counted myself, broadly speaking, as a feminist until perhaps the mid 90s. It became a meaningless term. > > Looking at (my) society, it makes far more sense to be interested in working class rights in general - and issues like child care, minimum wage, poverty, opportunity, education in particular - than it is wondering what society can do to make life still better whiny, entitled middle class mothers. I generally agree. I don’t think feminism is especially for or about moms, though. To go old-school on you for a moment: _"No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one._" - Simone de Beauvoir, author of The Second Sex \*“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.” - - Robin Morgan, co-founder, the Women’s Media Center. \*“The nuclear family must be destroyed . … Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.” \* Linda Gordon, author of Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right The surest way to turn a feminist into an ex-feminist is if she has a son. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/66 "2015-09-27T16:29:01Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > What i see is “i am not a feminist because [random non-sequitur]” (irritating netspeak corrected). To be honest, if you think all of these young women’s reasons for rejecting 3rd wave gender feminism are non-sequiturs, you really need to speak to more 3rd wave gender feminists. On an intellectual level, 3rd wave gender feminism is remarkable for its reliance on shoddy arguments and intellectual dishonesty. And on a personal level, its practitioners are remarkable for their abusiveness. You can find some good examples here: [I Once Had A Feminist Tell Me…](http://ioncehadafeministtellme.tumblr.com/) Now, it should come as no surprise that the examples cited in that link don’t make much reference to the works of Mary Wollstonecraft or Simone De Beauvoir. That doesn’t mean they have nothing to do with feminism, specifically the 3rd wave, as it is practised by very large number of people (particularly young people) in the West today, and I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to associate themselves with it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/67 "2015-09-27T16:35:43Z")
> [@camille](#): > > My bold. That is the basic credo of feminism, regardless of how someone self identifies. I do not agree with everything every other feminist says or does, and it does not preclude me from identifying as a feminist. Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology; some people do not understand that. > > Most of these “I don’t need feminism because…” selfies on that site are strawman arguments. I can’t help but notice that many of them are common MRA memes. Coincidence? > > These young women are ignorant of history and take the things feminists fought for and achieved for granted. Put them back in time to how things were for women in the recent past and then see how they feel about the need for feminism. > > Gains in equality aren’t something that can be achieved and then forgotten. There is no guarantee that any of the gains made by feminists are permanent, especially when there are anti-feminists who scapegoat feminism for every problem men face today. > > These people seem to feel that women should take a step back in order to improve the situation for men, instead of realizing that the system (and the patriarchy is part of that) is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - men and women alike. Should women stop going to college in greater numbers in order to improve that stats for men? Avoid high paying jobs so men have less competition? Why don’t these anti-feminists work to help disadvantaged men, instead of expending all their energy trying to pull women down? > > Of course, this has all been said before, and will probably be ignored yet again. The OP likes to start threads on this topic over and over again, seemingly hoping for different results. There is a word for that behavior. I’m curious to see if this new thread will inspire yet more new members with MRA/anti-feminist leanings to post and gift us with their pearls of wisdom. I don’t agree 100% (Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology) but overall I think your comments are incredibly valid. Just wanted to second their endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/68 "2015-09-27T17:53:11Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Feminism is about choices for women? That’s a big part of feminism, certainly, as I understand it. That’s certainly one of the main reasons I’m a feminist, because I want women to have the freedom to choose what’s best for them, body-wise, family-wise, career-wise, and society-wise. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/69 "2015-09-27T19:43:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It’s nice to know that “the patriarchy” and “rape culture” and slutwalks and Emma Sulkowicz and Anita Sarkeesian and the prosecution of Gregory Elliot have nothing to do with feminism. In your countless threads on this topic, you always bring up slut walks. What, exactly, do you have against slut walks? They began after a Toronto police officer said women should “stop dressing like sluts” to prevent rape. Do you think that was an appropriate thing to say? Now they occur internationally, and focus on the relevant issues in that area. In India, for example, they address female infanticide and forced marriage. Bunch of whiners? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/70 "2015-09-27T21:16:33Z")
Not to be catty about it, but: [Confused](http://36.media.tumblr.com/7e230ac1c50955edbdfc44bf0a06be8b/tumblr_ne58dntf9b1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [cats](http://36.media.tumblr.com/c3e4b76ada61079aa5ad9195fa8f7c32/tumblr_ncom9yoriq1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [against](http://41.media.tumblr.com/3a71db71c0e84c76f5120ee68606b2b1/tumblr_n9heyxWZDa1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [feminism](http://40.media.tumblr.com/374b0a7821f18bdf3c8843cb4f5c9af5/tumblr_nbbwj5vlLk1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg). Makes about as much sense as the OP’s site. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/71 "2015-09-27T21:25:40Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Not to be catty about it, but: > > [Confused](http://36.media.tumblr.com/7e230ac1c50955edbdfc44bf0a06be8b/tumblr_ne58dntf9b1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [cats](http://36.media.tumblr.com/c3e4b76ada61079aa5ad9195fa8f7c32/tumblr_ncom9yoriq1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [against](http://41.media.tumblr.com/3a71db71c0e84c76f5120ee68606b2b1/tumblr_n9heyxWZDa1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg) [feminism](http://40.media.tumblr.com/374b0a7821f18bdf3c8843cb4f5c9af5/tumblr_nbbwj5vlLk1thkqcyo1_1280.jpg). > > Makes about as much sense as the OP’s site. Silencing and delegitimising female voices like that is every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women in **LinusK’s** cite. It’s even more galling because ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ was created by a man. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/72 "2015-09-27T21:28:05Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Silencing and delegitimising female voices like that is every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women in **LinusK’s** cite. It’s even more galling because ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ was created by a man. How is that “silencing and deligitimising” anything? It just looked like plain old mockery to me. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/73 "2015-09-27T21:28:36Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Silencing and delegitimising female voices like that is every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women in **LinusK’s** cite. It’s even more galling because ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ was created by a man. And men can’t be feminists? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/74 "2015-09-27T21:35:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And men can’t be feminists? Depends on your perspective. I know some female feminists who have no problem with men calling themselves feminists. Other female feminists I know think that feminism was created _by_ women _for_ women, and that men who call themselves feminists are invading a space that isn’t meant for them and in which their voices are unneeded (and often unwelcome). These women think that men have no right to call themselves feminists and should call themselves “feminist allies” instead. Either way, taking the piss out of women who don’t want to be associated with 3rd wave gender feminism is a silencing tactic designed to delegitimise female voices, and it’s every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women on **LinusK’s** cite. If ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ had been created by a feminist woman, that would be bad enough. The fact that it was created by David Futrelle, a white, middle-class, cisgender male, just adds insult to injury. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/75 "2015-09-27T21:40:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How is that “silencing and deligitimising” anything? It just looked like plain old mockery to me. It’s both. It’s mockery designed to shut people up. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/76 "2015-09-27T21:44:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But… isn’t that what (most) of the women on that website are saying? They like feminine qualities and choose to embrace them. (f you want to substitute the word role for quality that is fine. Role gives more credence to cultural influence) Most of the ones I could read were not talking about roles per se. Once more, they’re starting with incorrect assumptions of what feminism is. Interesting you mention qualities instead of roles, as I don’t consider what some of them wrote as “qualities”, and having someone telling me they are raises :dubious: from me. They seem to be attacking straw men, they’re not attacking the principles of it. In fact, some start with “I’m not a feminist because…”, and then write something that is totally aligned with feminism. It is slightly pointed out in one of the more recent one, which admits that there is a difference between US and other parts of the world. The reason feminism in the US may be different from other places is because some places are still fighting for rights and outcomes that women in the US got decades ago. This does not make all feminism outdated, it just means that in different places the focus of what is important will shift. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/77 "2015-09-27T21:45:22Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > It’s both. It’s mockery designed to shut people up. Seems just like mockery designed to make people laugh to me – don’t know how it’s designed to silence anyone (in fact, I’m not sure how any mockery is designed to silence anyone). ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/78 "2015-09-27T22:03:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Seems just like mockery designed to make people laugh to me – don’t know how it’s designed to silence anyone (in fact, I’m not sure how any mockery is designed to silence anyone). Again, it’s _both._ The young women of ‘Women Against Feminism’ are giving their reasons for wanting to disassociate themselves from 3rd wave gender feminism, and they are speaking only for themselves. They have every right to that opinion. Rather than constructively challenge these opinions, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ starts from the presumption that these opinions are inherently stupid. This delegitimises their personal opinions by presuming that they are beyond the scope of rational discourse. If a woman chooses to distance herself from 3rd wave gender feminism, that’s her choice. It’s not _anyone’s_ place to delegitimise a woman’s personal opinions about feminism. For an allegedly feminist cis-gender male to do it, _despite the fact that 3rd wave gender feminism axiomatically situates him in a position of relative privilege to these women_, is just flagrant punching down. This abuse of power makes it more difficult for these women to express their honest opinions about 3rd wave gender feminism. Thus, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ is both silencing and delegitimising. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/79 "2015-09-27T22:05:57Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Rather than constructively challenge these opinions, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ starts from the presumption that these opinions are inherently stupid. This delegitimises their personal opinions by presuming that they are beyond the scope of rational discourse. This is your interpretation of the cats thing, but it’s not the only one. My interpretation is quite different – I see it as a combination of something like “much of the criticism of feminism [not necessarily this particular criticism] is nonsensical straw-manning” and “cats talking about feminism is funny”. > [@](#): > > If a woman chooses to distance herself from 3rd wave gender feminism, that’s her choice. It’s not _anyone’s_ place to delegitimise a woman’s personal opinions about feminism. For an allegedly feminist cis-gender male to do it, _despite the fact that 3rd wave gender feminism axiomatically situates him in a position of relative privilege to these women_, is just flagrant punching down. This abuse of power makes it more difficult for these women to express their honest opinions about 3rd wave gender feminism. I’m fine with all this – I don’t see how the cats stuff does any of this. > [@](#): > > Thus, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ is both silencing and delegitimising. I still don’t see it. I think the point of departure is in the first paragraph, in the “starts with the presumption…” bit. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/80 "2015-09-27T22:11:38Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > It’s both. It’s mockery designed to shut people up. The only way mockery would “shut them up” is if it causes them to realize their opinions are inane. There are plenty of opinions on the internet, and plenty of responses mocking those opinions, and I don’t see anyone being silenced by it unless they willingly change their views. It hasn’t silenced _you_, has it? On preview, to reply to your last post: Please. Countless “constructive challenges” were given in the countless previous threads the OP started on this subject. They were ignored (or by your standards, “delegitimised”?). You’re late to the party, my friend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=5)