# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/101 "2015-09-28T10:55:51Z")
> [@Camille](#): > > There is so much hypocrisy and logic fail here. > > You are effectively saying that feminists should refrain from mocking a tmblr blog that tries to delegitimise feminism with strawman selfies, because these anti-feminists might feel too intimidated and uncomfortable by the mocking to continue mocking feminists. No. I’m _not_ saying feminists should _refrain_ from mockery. I’m stating that the _consequences_ of that mockery, whether you like it or not, are that there will _inevitably_ be some women intimidated into being silent about their dislike of 3rd wave gender feminism. Mock all you like, but at least have the decency to OWN the damage you’re doing. > [@camille](#): > > They are not specifying third wave feminism… Oh, Jesus Christ. What do you _think_ they’re against? Suffrage? Abortion rights? Workplace protections? Maternity leave? Again, it’s _common sense!_. They don’t _have_ to specify 3rd Wave Gender Feminism. It’s bloody _obvious._ > [@camille](#): > > …and they are not providing constructive challenges to feminism… Okay, firstly, putting the word ‘opinions’ in scare quotes doesn’t magically make these women’s opinions somehow _not_ opinions. Secondly, there are _loads_ of constructive challenges on ‘Women Against Feminism’. Here’s just one example: _"I don’t need or want feminism because a label is only a word, and becomes that which those who use it portray it as. The word “feminist” has become tainted and poisonous. We say no to surrounding ourselves with that, and it’s amazing how, in that regard, feminists don’t think “no means no”. \ Your regurgitated strawman arguments of “I guess you don’t like the right to vote or drive or choose” are old, outdated, and invalid, as is your constant assumption that I, nor anyone else against feminism, doesn’t know its definition; that doing so would, magically change our minds. \ We call ourselves Egalitarians because we believe in encompassing all people, regardless of sex or who one thinks is “more oppressed”._ Now, there’s plenty of room for disagreement here, obviously. But, regardless of whether this woman has succeeded or failed, you can’t deny that her post was _intended_ as a constructive challenge. Just read the page. There are _so_ many more like this. > [@camille](#): > > …but you think it is unfair that their “opinions” are not taken seriously… I just think the idea of 3rd wave gender feminists telling women to “Shut up” because they don’t like what they have to say about 3rd wave gender feminism is depressing, ironic, and every bit as anti-feminist as anything **LinusK** has posted. And I think the way that CCAF chooses to do it - that is, without trying to engage, or address _any_ of these women’s complaints in _any_ way - is dangerously close to “Aww, don’t you worry your pretty little heads about it girls”, especially since it’s coming from a privileged cis-gender male. > [@camille](#): > > And then, you think it is “arguable” that their opinions are “more important” than any poster here? So what’s the point of posting if you disagree? You are advocating witnessing, which is what the OP intends with all these anti-feminists “debates”. You’re right. I used the wrong word. I apologise. Their opinions are _definitely_ more important than ours. Why? Because the subject of this thread _is_ their opinions. _They_ are the ultimate authority on what they think and why, not us. When 3rd wave gender feminists go out of their way to portray these women as a bunch of half-bright little ditzes who’ve no idea what 3rd wave gender feminism _really_ is, or dishonestly try to conflate their criticism of 3rd wave gender feminism with criticism of the entire feminist movement from its inception to the present day (y’know, like _you’re_ always doing) they’re pretending to be mind readers and completely discounting all the real world experience which may have led these women to this conclusion. How very feminist. > [@camille](#): > > No one is forcing these women to post opinions on the internet without anonymity. That is their choice. Do you really believe it’s “just common sense” that women willing to do that will be intimidated into silence by a silly cat tmblr? You’re talking about _two different groups of women!_ The first group are the women who _have_ sent their pictures in or are _going_ to send their pictures in, and the second group are the women who _would_ have sent their pictures in but now won’t because of the increased social cost for doing so thanks to sites like CCAF and others. Of course, when it comes to opponents of 3rd wave gender feminism, Futrelle and CCAF are at the mild end of the spectrum. At the other end you’ve got stuff like this: \*"I once had a feminist tell me I was “a disgusting little girl” who “didn’t understand feminism” because I like to receive compliments from men. I had another feminist tell me I was stupid and rude for implying that not all white people are bad and telling them I have black friends."\* _“I once had a feminist tell me that I was ‘cis white scum’ for not agreeing that women should be allowed to go out topless. She proceeded to tell me to kill myself.”_ _“I once had a feminist tell me I was an ungrateful she-cow for not needing feminism. (I live in America, we’re very well off here)”_ You can find many more examples (oh, _so_ many more) at: [http://ioncehadafeministtellme.tumblr.com/](http://ioncehadafeministtellme.tumblr.com/) > [@camille](#): > > Really? If so, that’s really too bad, because no one has the right to not be mocked for their public statements, anonymous or not. Strawman. I never said the women on ‘Women Against Feminism’ should be immune from mockery. I merely said that, whether you want to admit it or not, this mockery has a chilling effect on the discourse of women who oppose 3rd wave gender feminism, and that those who mock these women need to own up to that. > [@camille](#): > > These are young girls, who obviously have little experience facing the challenges of adulthood, and I cut them some slack for that. I have no idea what your excuse is, and I don’t care to get into it with you any further here. Maybe I’ll catch you in the next anti-feminist thread. They’re like buses on this MB; another one should be along any minute. You have no grounds on which to assess these women’s levels of life experience. Some of them, judging by their posts, have clearly been through an awful lot, probably more than either of us. I don’t plan on participating in any more anti-3rd wave gender feminism threads. If they’re all as tedious and unproductive as this one, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/102 "2015-09-28T11:17:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m a feminist and I don’t feel this way about any of these issues. Nor do the vast majority of any feminist I’ve ever spoken to, heard from, or read about, I’m pretty sure. Given the number of posts at ioncehadafeministtellme and tumblrinaction, I’m really interested about your social circle. When it’s trivial to find hundreds of examples of feminists behaving badly, claiming that they are a tiny minority to a vast majority seems to require a sample size of thousands. Plus, there’s that whole thing about telling people “Hey, that thing you’re complaining about a problem with a strong gender component has never happened to me and no one I know complains about it, so obviously it’s not really an issue.” I mean, I’m a man and I don’t, e.g., catcall, nor do any of my male friends that I know of, but not only am I not in a position to observe this, my social circle isn’t a representative sample of the male population. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/103 "2015-09-28T11:55:41Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Given the number of posts at ioncehadafeministtellme and tumblrinaction, I’m really interested about your social circle. When it’s trivial to find hundreds of examples of feminists behaving badly, claiming that they are a tiny minority to a vast majority seems to require a sample size of thousands. I’m part of a wide circle of late-20s/early-30s women in the international relations community in DC. We hold regular events where gender and career is the primary discussion. A big one lately has been negotiation skills when it comes to salaries, and trying to crack how we can get better at us. A few of us are new mothers, and we have been discussing how to avoid the “mommy track” when our workplaces keep trying to steer us that way. We’ve been following the “Women Can’t Have it All” article chain pretty closely, and having some good debates on it. Other than that, it’s lots of advice on kids, some about dealing with stuff like splitting up household chores, and feminist takes on books or articles we’ve read. Most more mature feminists are not out there making Tumblr campaigns, because we are knee deep in work, kids and life. Tumblr doesn’t represent life. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/104 "2015-09-28T13:32:07Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Ok, that’s great for you. But it is factually incorrect to state that feminism is not about that or no feminist hold such views. For some feminists this is what feminism is about. And presumable that is the kind of feminism these woman are against - and so are you apparently. They’re not against suffrage, or allowing women to hold property or such things. Nobody in the western world – outside a few nutjobs – hold such views anymore. This is not what feminism is about as I understand it, though I accept the possibility that some feminists feel differently and actually may hold those views. I oppose anyone who tars feminism as a whole by assigning such views to feminism as a whole as opposed to some corner of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/105 "2015-09-28T17:24:08Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And yes, many [feminists](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/1-wives-are-helping-kill-feminism-and-make-the-war-on-women-possible/258431/) have had a very disdainful attitude towards stay at home moms – and motherhood in general. Quite odd really, since bearing children is of course a very and uniquely womanly thing to be able to do. Being against wives of the 1% setting the standards for motherhood is not at all being against motherhood. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/106 "2015-09-28T21:05:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m part of a wide circle of late-20s/early-30s women in the international relations community in DC. We hold regular events where gender and career is the primary discussion. > > A big one lately has been negotiation skills when it comes to salaries, and trying to crack how we can get better at us. A few of us are new mothers, and we have been discussing how to avoid the “mommy track” when our workplaces keep trying to steer us that way. We’ve been following the “Women Can’t Have it All” article chain pretty closely, and having some good debates on it. > > Other than that, it’s lots of advice on kids, some about dealing with stuff like splitting up household chores, and feminist takes on books or articles we’ve read. > > Most more mature feminists are not out there making Tumblr campaigns, because we are knee deep in work, kids and life. Tumblr doesn’t represent life. And you know thousands of people, well enough to detail their political opinions and style of posting on the Internet? Again, no one’s saying that all feminists are like those aggregated on the terrible feminist aggregator sites, and no one reasonable is claiming that they’re even close to a majority. Where we seem to disagree is to what extent their numerical representation is in between “statistically-significant minority” and “rounding error”, and you need to survey a statistically-significant and representative sample of feminists to do that, or come up with a really large sample of non-terrible feminists. We do agree on this, right? Or do I get to generalize from my experiences in tech as to how reasonable you are for worrying about bad behavior from companies related to sex-based discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/107 "2015-09-28T21:07:49Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > (irritating netspeak corrected). If you want to correct “irritating netspeak,” then do it outside the quotation box. Do not violate board rules simply to express a pert peeve. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/108 "2015-09-28T21:13:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I happen to think a good chunk of that campaign is at least deeply misinformed- feminism just isn’t against the things they are complaining about, in in some cases (like the people commenting on enjoying sex), Feminism as you know it maybe, but the kind of feminism these women are confronted to and ranting against fits very well most of the statements written on these signs. > [@](#): > > Maybe I just live in a bubble, but your view of feminism seems so vastly different from mine it’s nearly incomprehensable. Most feminists I know are ordinary women with relatively ordinary opinions, who are concerned about things like work-family issues, women’s health and gender issues globally. Most women would define themselves as feminists for the reasons you mentioned. But they aren’t activists. They’re just women who support equality between genders and don’t give it much of a thought besides that. There are some activists of course, sitting in comitees, writing scholarly articles, supporting some legal case or another, but they aren’t, in fact, very visible. A serious paper might interview one of them once in a while, but that’s about it. On the other hand, if you see feminist blogs (not just blogs written by some random woman who mentioned somewhere that she’s feminist), for instance, the majority of them are maintained by college-age frothing at the mouth anti-patriarchy “social warriors”. That the kind of visible people the “anti-feminist” women on this site are writing about. And it might be the only kind of “feminism” they’re familiar with. > [@](#): > > When I was in college, I maybe met a few extremists, but they aren’t the bulk or the most visible, IMHO. It might have changed. I hadn’t noticed this florishing of extremist feminism until quite recently. And the web isn’t necessarily representative of people you meet in real life anyway. > [@even\_sven](#): > > I went and read some of these. I think my favorite was along the lines of > > “I’m not a feminist because feminists believe sex workers like me deserve to be raped and killed for being collaborationists with the patriarchy” > > Bwah? Bwaaaaaaaah? If that’s what feminists believe, I guess they are pretty horrible. You’re lacking the context. She’s refering to the abolitionist feminists who hope for the complete dissapearance of “sex work”. Besides lecturing prostitutes from their high horses, they push for laws and implementation of them that would punish harshly prostitutes and other sex workers’ clients, providers (like web site owners, renters,…), etc… (not punishing the sex workers themselves, they’re deemed victims. Sometimes rape victims since their activity is considered by some as inherently rape or sexual assault). Besides potentially reducing the potential pool of customers and making more difficult to get in touch with them, it forces sex work into clandestinity (for instance, no way to get a verifiable phone number or to meet the client in a relatively safe place if he’s at risk to be sent to jail for years for searching for sex services or meeting the sex worker, and the place owner runs the same risk). These laws if or when implemented force prostitutes to work less openly and more dangerously. The feminists we’re talkin about are totally deaf to these arguments (and have hardly any interest in the opinion of sex workers in general unless they present themselves as reformed former sex work victims). That’s what this woman was refering to. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/109 "2015-09-28T22:07:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Feminism as you know it maybe, but the kind of feminism these women are confronted to and ranting against fits very well most of the statements written on these signs. Sure, but if the majority of messages that they have written are themselves feminist (e.g., “I can fight my own battles”, “I can think for myself”, “I’m happy to have **chosen** to be a housewife”, etc.), then it’s not really an anti-feminism movement. I’d go with, perhaps, anti-feminazi movement (to take from Rush Limbaugh). But that’s a movement against particular people, not against feminism. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/110 "2015-09-28T22:38:04Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No argument here just a question: > > What if a girl/woman really likes cooking and keeping house and wearing a dress or dressing or acting feminine. Those actions alone do not make one submissive do they? > > (That would probably be a very bad combination with an overbearing husband, however. If this last comment is too distracting disregard it.) I think a lot would depend on whether or not she considers her individual preferences as just that, HER INDIVIDUAL preferences (specific to her only) and not requirements or living parameters for every woman in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/111 "2015-09-28T22:48:00Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I generally agree. I don’t think feminism is especially for or about moms, though. > To go old-school on you for a moment: > > _"No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one._" > > - Simone de Beauvoir, author of The Second Sex > \*“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.” > > - > > - Robin Morgan, co-founder, the Women’s Media Center. > \*“The nuclear family must be destroyed . … Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.” \* > > Linda Gordon, author of Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right > The surest way to turn a feminist into an ex-feminist is if she has a son. Some of the strongest feminist I know are the mothers’ of sons who work very hard to raise them as decent young men and not future date rapists. Hatred of the nuclear family has little to do with feminism and a millenniums old tradition in support of the extended family (the more stable and successful family model). In deed some forms of Mommy feminism are major supporters of the nuclear family. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/112 "2015-09-28T23:32:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > They are women who are against feminism. Maybe they don’t want to be infantilized or perhaps they have some men in their life which have been fucked over by female privilege, or they’re the intellectual equal of girls kissing in the club. I recon they’re all sorts. > > All internet warriors are irrelevant minorities. The majority of people are too busy with living their life to give a shit about political internet activists. > > There is no backlash against feminism since feminism itself is a rather marginalized ideology. A vast majority of Americans believe in equality for women, but only a measly 18% identify as feminists. > > There is no patriarchy. I agree with much of what you say. But even though feminism is minority position, it exercises outsize influence on family law, criminal law, and the educational system - especially, though not only - college campuses. It also has a very definite effect on culture, although you might need to take a step back to see it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/113 "2015-09-28T23:35:37Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I agree with much of what you say. But even though feminism is minority position, it exercises outsize influence on family law, criminal law, and the educational system - especially, though not only - college campuses. It also has a very definite effect on culture, although you might need to take a step back to see it. It’s very influential, thankfully, and I can’t think of any significant influences from feminism on any of these categories that have been negative. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/114 "2015-09-29T01:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Rune > > There is no backlash against feminism since feminism itself is a rather marginalized ideology. A vast majority of Americans believe in equality for women, but only a measly 18% identify as feminists. > > My bold. That is the basic credo of feminism, regardless of how someone self identifies. I do not agree with everything every other feminist says or does, and it does not preclude me from identifying as a feminist. Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology; some people do not understand that. > > Most of these “I don’t need feminism because…” selfies on that site are strawman arguments. I can’t help but notice that many of them are common MRA memes. Coincidence? > > These young women are ignorant of history and take the things feminists fought for and achieved for granted. Put them back in time to how things were for women in the recent past and then see how they feel about the need for feminism. > > Gains in equality aren’t something that can be achieved and then forgotten. There is no guarantee that any of the gains made by feminists are permanent, especially when there are anti-feminists who scapegoat feminism for every problem men face today. > > These people seem to feel that women should take a step back in order to improve the situation for men, instead of realizing that the system (and the patriarchy is part of that) is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - men and women alike. Wait. Patriarchy is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - “men and women alike.” Then… why is it called “patriarchy”? I’m not seeing any of them saying that women should take a “step back”. Did you see it? Because if not, I have to wonder why you’re putting words in their mouths. You also characterize them as “young women.” [This one](http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/post/127590831855/click-here-to-submit-your-picture-visit-us-on), however, appears to be in her 60’s: > [@](#): > > _I STILL don’t need FEMINISM_ > > When I first heard of it in 1970 > I was already FREE to… > > [ol] > [li]apply to college (rendered in 1970)[/li][li]graduate in a STEM field (geology)[/li][li]buy B.C. pills (100% on my own & I used them!)[/li][li]navigate LIFE (for Better-AND-Worse!)[/li][li]MAKE my own OPPORTUNITIES[/li][li]AND DEAL with my MISTAKES (Duh!)[/li][/ol] > [@](#): > > Should women stop going to college in greater numbers in order to improve that stats for men? Who said women should stop going to college? > [@](#): > > Avoid high paying jobs so men have less competition? Who said that? > [@](#): > > Why don’t these anti-feminists work to help disadvantaged men, instead of expending all their energy trying to pull women down? #1: Feminism _does not equal women_. #2: There are those that think that feminism hurts women. Did you know that? > [@](#): > > Of course, this has all been said before, and will probably be ignored yet again. If by “ignored” you mean you use poor logic, and frequently resort to ad hominems, instead, then yes; it will be ignored. Putting words in other people’s mouths, implying that they’re stupid, or misled, or that they hate women - these things are not true arguments. They’re attempts to shut down conversations by insulting people who disagree with you. > [@](#): > > The OP likes to start threads on this topic over and over again, seemingly hoping for different results. There is a word for that behavior. I’m curious to see if this new thread will inspire yet more new members with MRA/anti-feminist leanings to post and gift us with their pearls of wisdom. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/115 "2015-09-29T02:10:48Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > No, that’s not the way the world works. We’ve had this discussion before. You cannot one day go crazy about man spreading, rape culture and kangaroo courts, the Patriarchy, slut walks, privilege and oppression Olympics, girl quotas and what else is the fancy du jour. And then the next day when confronted with people who don’t subscribe to such ideologies, claim that they’re obviously mistaken since feminism is nothing less and nothing more than just equality, and only knuckledraggin Neanderthalers and silly brainwashed girls don’t support this. I’m sorry that your kind of feminism has been hijacked by people with other ideologies and agendas. But it has. Fine if you want to turn feminism back its core values and strip all the 3rd wave nonsense, but that’s going to be some struggle and you’re likely going to be accused of exactly them same as you accuse these young women of. > > MRAs are pathetic mainly because they’ve decided to compete with feminists in the oppression Olympics. Nothing gets a MRA going quite like telling him to quit whining and man the fuck up. They are obnoxious and have infested the internet over the last couple of years. Whenever someone mentions a girl doing something or other, there’s this pathetic chorus of boys going: what if the genders were reversed. Well they aren’t and men and women aren’t the same so it’s not comparable if they were. Like I was poking around on youtube the other week and stumbled on this innocent video: [11 year old KID Picking Up GIRLS Prank](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYvApb8CPnk) And there they are: _“I just realized people think it’s cute to see an 11 year old boy pick up older women but seeing an 11 year old girl pick up older men is just straight up creepy as hell XD”_, _“do this the other way around too!11 year old girl picking up guys.i would LOVE to see the reactions“_ wha wha wha. The same with FGM. Cannot have a discussion on it without some guy coming in with circumcision in the USA. And God help you if you enter into a thread where a female teacher has being having sex with a student of hers. MRA suck so bad it hurts. I tread on shaky ground, because I don’t know much about them. But my impression is MRA’s don’t get it: they’ve take feminism’s claims about equality at face value, and they don’t understand the cultural role men play in society - both terrible mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/116 "2015-09-29T10:16:51Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Wait. Patriarchy is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - “men and women alike.” > > Then… why is it called “patriarchy”? It’s called patriarchy because the power and social structures of society were shaped by men. And even though there have been some changes, the patriarchal framework, cultural mores, and mindset still exists. The wealthy either have power, or control the powerful, and the higher up you go on the rungs of power and influence, the more patriarchal it gets. Of the 72 most powerful people in the world named by Forbes, only nine of them are women. About 95% of CEOs are men. Over 75% of Wall Street bankers are men. The majority of political legislative seats around the world are men. The military, defense industry, and law enforcement are dominated by men. Who’s got all the weapons? Men. Who’s got their fingers on the buttons, knows the codes to set off Armageddon? Men. Here in the US, we have yet to see a female President or Vice-President. So yes, this system is gamed for the wealthy and powerful few, at the expense of the majority, both men and women. But the influence of cultural patriarchy is in play as well: We are descended from ethnic cultures that are patriarchal. The three major religions are patriarchal. The majority of US women follow the patrilineal custom of taking their husband’s surname when they marry, as will their children. These are some of the things that perpetuates both the mindset and acceptance of a patriarchal society. How can anyone think there is no such thing as patriarchy? It doesn’t mean that all men are equally powerful. It’s not about individuals, it’s a societal framework. And as it’s been said, over and over, _it limits most men as well_. Both the power structure _and_ the mindset. > [@LinusK](#): > > I’m not seeing any of them saying that women should take a “step back”. Did you see it? > > Because if not, I have to wonder why you’re putting words in their mouths. > > You also characterize them as “young women.” [This one](http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/post/127590831855/click-here-to-submit-your-picture-visit-us-on), however, appears to be in her 60’s: > > Who said women should stop going to college? > > Who said that? _I_ said it. It was a question, a _theoretical_ question, as in: _What could these people want?_ And if you note the preceding paragraph I was referring to _anti-feminists in general_, not the tmblr women. I never claimed anyone in particular said those things. And the vast, vast majority of those selfies are young women. I saw only two, maybe three older women, including the one you cherry picked. I didn’t imply they were stupid. Young, inexperienced, and/or ignorant does not equal stupid. But it can’t be denied that there were a lot of non sequiturs and strawman arguments on those signs. So I’ll ask specifically: What do _these women_ want? They say they are living life as they choose, and thinking for themselves. So what’s the problem? Some other women think differently, or hurt their feelings on the internet? They’re under attack and intimidated by a cat parody site? Why should I take this seriously? > [@LinusK](#): > > #1: Feminism _does not equal women_. > > #2: There are those that think that feminism hurts women. Did you know that? #1 Right. Do I need to go back to your previous threads against feminism and quote how often you used _women_ in place of _feminists_ as a descriptor? Who was it that would have a hard time killing bugs if all the men went away? Only feminists? Are feminists the only ones making the false rape accusations or getting the child custody and support you’re always banging on about? Please. #2 How could I not, when you start a thread about it every 15 minutes? > [@LinusK](#): > > Putting words in other people’s mouths, implying that they’re stupid, or misled, or that they hate women - these things are not true arguments. They’re attempts to shut down conversations by insulting people who disagree with you. I put no words in anyone’s mouth. That’s your comprehension skills, which have been an ongoing issue in all your threads. You clearly have a hard time recognizing sarcasm, rhetorical questions, nuance, interpreting complex data… FFS, you’re a defense lawyer who claims sexual assault is a “particularly difficult charge to defend”, in spite of all the evidence that says otherwise. It seems like you’re willing to go to any lengths to maintain your belief that feminism is all powerful and the root of all evil. And btw, it’s laughable for you to claim that anyone is trying to shut down your conversations, when at any given time you’ve got a thread going on about your pet topics. I only wonder what feminist related website or rape case article you’ll “just happen to come across” next, in order to start yet another thread about it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/117 "2015-09-29T12:25:19Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I tread on shaky ground, because I don’t know much about them. But my impression is MRA’s don’t get it: they’ve take feminism’s claims about equality at face value, and they don’t understand the cultural role men play in society - both terrible mistakes. What is it you think they misunderstand about the cultural role men play in society? I would agree that they misunderstand, but I would pin practically identical misunderstandings on you. I mean, you’re a fan of Karen Straughan, in the sense that you often refer to her stuff positively–and she is a central case of MRA beliefs. If you think she’s right about most things, then you are an MRA yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/118 "2015-09-29T12:27:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Feminism as you know it maybe, but the kind of feminism these women are confronted to and ranting against fits very well most of the statements written on these signs. I doubt it. More likely is that they are “confronted to and ranting against” an image of feminism they find from anti-feminist sources in their facebook or tumblr feeds or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/119 "2015-09-29T14:02:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re talking about something else entirely, but you’ve got me wondering: if someone says _“I believe males and females should compete against each other in sports, rather than having separate competitions; I figure the men will usually win pretty easily, but, hey, that’s what it means to be treated as equals”_ – would that be a feminist position, or an MRA position? Or both? Or neither? > > That’s not snark; I genuinely don’t know. Definitely not a feminist position: feminists are all over Title IX, to the extent it forces schools to redirect money from men’s sports to women, but they never advocated men competing with women. Nobody’s advocated that, because it would be stupid. I did see a female basketball team playing a male basketball team once: it was the University’s team playing against a local High School. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/120 "2015-09-29T14:10:18Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > These women are _obviously_ talking about 3rd wave gender feminism. 3rd wave gender feminism, unlike feminism from generations past, is intellectually dishonest and deliberately obnoxious. I’m not surprised these young women don’t want to be associated with it. By equating their opposition to 3rd wave gender feminism with opposition to _all_ feminism, you’re just straw-manning them. > [@](#): > > I do not need feminism. > > Feminism: The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social and economic equality to men. > > I know the gaddamn definition. I can prove we have all our rights. I don’t need to fight for what I already have. 2015 American feminism is lie-driven, entitled whining. She seems to agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=7)