# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/121 "2015-09-29T14:16:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by KarlGrenze View Post > > And the main point again is that, no matter the choice, it is valid and should not be denied or dismissed solely because of the gender. If a man enjoys cooking and cleaning the house, he should not be judged or persuaded to stop doing it once he marries or mocked. Similar, a woman should not be persuaded to be a housekeeper if she prefers to do something else. Granted, I also believe everyone should have basic skills on cooking and household chores. > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by even sven View Post > > Sure, but when it comes to individuals there is clearly a range, and it should be individual inclination rather than plumbing that decides your choices. > > But… isn’t that what (most) of the women on that website are saying? They like feminine qualities and choose to embrace them. (f you want to substitute the word role for quality that is fine. Role gives more credence to cultural influence) > [@](#): > > I don’t need feminism because I like being treated like a woman. She agrees. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/122 "2015-09-29T14:25:51Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > So i followed the link, and hav to conclude, the answer is: > “a bunch of stupid cunts” I take it you’re a feminist? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/123 "2015-09-29T17:55:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a big part of feminism, certainly, as I understand it. That’s certainly one of the main reasons I’m a feminist, because I want women to have the freedom to choose what’s best for them, body-wise, family-wise, career-wise, and society-wise. And men too, I assume? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/124 "2015-09-29T17:55:55Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > And men too, I assume? Certainly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/125 "2015-09-29T18:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t need feminism because I like being treated like a woman. > [@LinusK](#): > > She agrees. What do you think it is she means when she makes that statement? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/126 "2015-09-29T18:28:23Z")
And this > [@](#): > > I don’t need to fight for what I already have Really? At best, sounds overconfident in the irreversibility of progress, combined with an “I have what **I** value, we can stop now” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/127 "2015-09-29T18:39:39Z")
Ah, another thread where we discover that anti-feminists don’t know what feminism means. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/128 "2015-09-29T21:33:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ah, another thread where we discover that anti-feminists don’t know what feminism means. But the anti feminists still try to tell the feminists we don’t know either. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/129 "2015-09-29T22:25:37Z")
> [@camille](#): > > The only way mockery would “shut them up” is if it causes them to realize their opinions are inane. > > There are plenty of opinions on the internet, and plenty of responses mocking those opinions, and I don’t see anyone being silenced by it unless they willingly change their views. > > It hasn’t silenced _you_, has it? > > \ Mockery works best when it’s aimed at deserving targets. When it’s used indiscriminately against anybody who disagrees with you it just shows you have nothing else to bring to the table. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/130 "2015-09-29T23:14:32Z")
If someone can’t take being mocked they are a very poor advocate for the cause. If the mockery is in fact gratuituous and indiscriminate, the people will eventually weary of it and it will be ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/131 "2015-09-29T23:44:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Mockery works best when it’s aimed at deserving targets. > > When it’s used indiscriminately against anybody who disagrees with you it just shows you have nothing else to bring to the table. Mockery is a very effective tool for silencing those who should not be allowed to have a voice. When mockery does not succeed, harassment and threats are used – many antifeminists have been doxxed and harassed. Many men and some women understand that in USA 2015 there is significant discrimination against men – male victims face [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf), men are discriminated in divorce cases, male offenders get 61% longer sentence for the same crime, male bashing is very acceptable in the media. Many understand it few dare to talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/132 "2015-09-30T00:06:02Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > It’s just common sense. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist in the Bible Belt, you’d likely have no qualms about advocating for Young Earth Creationism. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist at Harvard, on the other hand, you might keep it to yourself. That doesn’t mean you’re _not_ a Young Earth Creationist. It just means you’re intimidated into keeping quiet because you don’t want others in your peer group to laugh at you. That’s how mockery can silence a person without actually changing their mind. > > The same applies here. If you state an opinion, and then a tumblr mocking your opinion goes viral, you might think twice about expressing that opinion. That doesn’t mean you no longer hold it. It just means you’ve been effectively silenced. > > Firstly, neither of us has any way of knowing how many young women have been dissuaded from posting their picture and their opinions on ‘Women Against Feminism’. However, given the veritable tidal wave of mockery levelled against them (of which CCAF is only a small part), I find the idea that _none_ have to be absolutely ridiculous. > > Secondly, I post here behind a pseudonym. There’s no way to identify me through my posts. The same cannot be said for the women on ‘Women Against Feminism’. They _can_ be identified and, thanks to stuff like CCAF, they now have to pay a higher social cost for expressing this particular personal opinion. > > Thirdly, I have a thick skin, and I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks about me. If someone thinks my opinions make me an asshole, I couldn’t care less. There are plenty of people out there who don’t share this blasé attitude. Just because I’ve not been silenced doesn’t mean that no-one has. > > Fourthly, if you re-read my posts, you’ll note that I go out of my way to specify exactly what it is I’m against. I’m not anti-feminist. I’m anti 3rd wave gender feminism. I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to equate the two. It’s perfectly possible to be against a certain subset of feminism without opposing feminism as a whole. The roots of misandry go back deeper than just 3rd wave feminism. > > They are, however, the _subject_ of this thread. Arguably, their opinions are more important than the opinions of any one poster here. Secondly, as I’ve already said, there’s no social cost to being anti 3rd wave gender feminism here, because no-one knows what we look like, no-one knows our real names, and no-one can track us down. The women on ‘Women Against Feminism’ can’t say the same. They’re much easier to silence. > > I’m not claiming to speak directly for them. I’m simply pointing out the _blindingly obvious fact_ that taking the piss out of people for the views that they hold makes them less likely to state them, but not necessarily less likely to hold them. This is just a simple fact of human nature. It’s how it works with everything. Mary Daly refused to let men in her class (she taught at Boston University). Sally Miller Gearhart (professor at San Francisco University in the 70’s) wrote in her 1982 anthology, _Reweaving the Web of Life: Feminism and Nonviolence_: "The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.”. Andrea Dworkin said: “Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman,” among other things. Robin Morgan said, "I feel that man-hating is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” She also said the goal of feminism was not “being equal, but to assume the power.” The rot of misandry in feminism goes back further than just the 3rd wave. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/133 "2015-09-30T00:11:40Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Mockery is a very effective tool for silencing those who should not be allowed to have a voice. When mockery does not succeed, harassment and threats are used – many antifeminists have been doxxed and harassed. > > Many men and some women understand that in USA 2015 there is significant discrimination against men – male victims face [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf), men are discriminated in divorce cases, male offenders get 61% longer sentence for the same crime, male bashing is very acceptable in the media. > > Many understand it few dare to talk about it. Who should not be allowed to have a voice? And who decides this? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/134 "2015-09-30T00:13:54Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Who should not be allowed to have a voice? And who decides this? I was speaking sarcastically. I hope The Age of Social Networks gives voice to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/135 "2015-09-30T00:16:52Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The rot of misandry in feminism goes back further than just the 3rd wave. I must be incredibly and miraculously lucky in my personal dealings and readings with feminists and feminism – I’ve encountered virtually zero misandry from fellow feminists. I’m sure there are some feminists who are bigoted against men, but I must have really dodged a bullet (or a million bullets, based on some of your assertions about feminism) by only encountering and dealing with feminists who don’t say or do misandrous (misandrynous?) things. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/136 "2015-09-30T02:08:59Z")
> [@camille](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Tithonus > > It’s just common sense. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist in the Bible Belt, you’d likely have no qualms about advocating for Young Earth Creationism. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist at Harvard, on the other hand, you might keep it to yourself. That doesn’t mean you’re not a Young Earth Creationist. It just means you’re intimidated into keeping quiet because you don’t want others in your peer group to laugh at you. That’s how mockery can silence a person without actually changing their mind. > > > > The same applies here. If you state an opinion, and then a tumblr mocking your opinion goes viral, you might think twice about expressing that opinion. That doesn’t mean you no longer hold it. It just means you’ve been effectively silenced. > > > > Firstly, neither of us has any way of knowing how many young women have been dissuaded from posting their picture and their opinions on ‘Women Against Feminism’. However, given the veritable tidal wave of mockery levelled against them (of which CCAF is only a small part), I find the idea that none have to be absolutely ridiculous. > > > > Secondly, I post here behind a pseudonym. There’s no way to identify me through my posts. The same cannot be said for the women on ‘Women Against Feminism’. They can be identified and, thanks to stuff like CCAF, they now have to pay a higher social cost for expressing this particular personal opinion. > > > > Thirdly, I have a thick skin, and I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks about me. If someone thinks my opinions make me an asshole, I couldn’t care less. There are plenty of people out there who don’t share this blasé attitude. Just because I’ve not been silenced doesn’t mean that no-one has. > > > > Fourthly, if you re-read my posts, you’ll note that I go out of my way to specify exactly what it is I’m against. I’m not anti-feminist. I’m anti 3rd wave gender feminism. I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to equate the two. It’s perfectly possible to be against a certain subset of feminism without opposing feminism as a whole. > > > > They are, however, the subject of this thread. Arguably, their opinions are more important than the opinions of any one poster here. Secondly, as I’ve already said, there’s no social cost to being anti 3rd wave gender feminism here, because no-one knows what we look like, no-one knows our real names, and no-one can track us down. The women on ‘Women Against Feminism’ can’t say the same. They’re much easier to silence. > > > > I’m not claiming to speak directly for them. I’m simply pointing out the blindingly obvious fact that taking the piss out of people for the views that they hold makes them less likely to state them, but not necessarily less likely to hold them. This is just a simple fact of human nature. It’s how it works with everything. > > There is so much hypocrisy and logic fail here. > > You are effectively saying that feminists should refrain from mocking a tmblr blog that tries to delegitimise feminism with strawman selfies, because these anti-feminists might feel too intimidated and uncomfortable by the mocking to continue mocking feminists. I didn’t see her (or him) saying that. Since what she actually said is there, why are you putting words in her mouth? > [@](#): > > They are not specifying third wave feminism, and they are not providing constructive challenges to feminism, but you think it is unfair that their “opinions” are not taken seriously. “Constructive challenges”? Are those the only kind that are allowed? Or are they the only ones you’re willing to take seriously? > [@](#): > > And then, you think it is “arguable” that their opinions are “more important” than any poster here? So what’s the point of posting if you disagree? You are advocating witnessing, which is what the OP intends with all these anti-feminists “debates”. Attacking the person is pathetic substitute for attacking the argument. You’ve already said that shaming me doesn’t work - yet here you are working at it again. I have to assume you think, maybe, eventually, it will work. > [@](#): > > No one is forcing these women to post opinions on the internet without anonymity. That is their choice. Do you really believe it’s “just common sense” that women willing to do that will be intimidated into silence by a silly cat tmblr? Really? You’re strawmannirg her argument, which is an especially dishonest tactic. I’m glad to see, though, that you’re finally acknowledging Tithonus’s actual point - that their willingness to expose themselves to feminist shaming tactics demonstrates their commitment to what they’re saying. > [@](#): > > If so, that’s really too bad, because no one has the right to not be mocked for their public statements, anonymous or not. > > I’m glad you have a thick skin, because I have to say I think your opinions in this thread are inane, and beyond rational discourse. There’s a lot that’s “beyond rational discourse” for you, isn’t there? > [@](#): > > BTW, I also disagree with a lot of third wave feminism issues and tactics (which you would know if you had read any of the previous anti-feminist threads), but I wouldn’t expect them to take me seriously if I posted scrawled non sequitur and strawman selfies as a critique. Really? What are they? > [@](#): > > These are young girls, who obviously have little experience facing the challenges of adulthood, and I cut them some slack for that. I have no idea what your excuse is, and I don’t care to get into it with you any further here. Maybe I’ll catch you in the next anti-feminist thread. They’re like buses on this MB; another one should be along any minute. Being old has its own disadvantages - for example, getting set in your ways. Becoming incapable of absorbing new information. Resisting change. You might remember observing that, back when you were young. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/137 "2015-09-30T02:22:12Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > “Constructive challenges”? Are those the only kind that are allowed? > > Or are they the only ones you’re willing to take seriously? You know **LinusK** , you have a very salient point here. Providing constructive criticism requires respect, and you have shown you have none in this case. And it’s impossible to respect something you think is fundamentally a poisonous weed that should be destroyed root and branch. . ---
**Author:** ![McDoogins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@McDoogins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDoogins)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/138 "2015-09-30T02:30:50Z")
From the article. It can be pointless and pedantic to play what some of us call “Oppression Olympics,” but in this case the discrepancy between this UN group’s complaints and the real suffering of women is too great to ignore. In a world afflicted by female genital mutilation, forced marriages and acid attacks on girls whose only crime is wanting an education, the UN has chosen to focus on the professional whinging of privileged and mendacious western activists. The UN has always been a joke, but in this case, by providing a platform for such ludicrously entitled windbags, they have provided us all with the punchline themselves. The underlined part pretty much sums it up for me. It’s sad that I’m not really surprised. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/139 "2015-09-30T03:41:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I must be incredibly and miraculously lucky in my personal dealings and readings with feminists and feminism – I’ve encountered virtually zero misandry from fellow feminists. I’m sure there are some feminists who are bigoted against men, but I must have really dodged a bullet (or a million bullets, based on some of your assertions about feminism) by only encountering and dealing with feminists who don’t say or do misandrous (misandrynous?) things. Social groups are not randomly chosen from the population. People associate with other people like them most of the time, when they can. Or, to put things another way, how many times have you or people in your circle of friends catcalled a random woman on the sidewalk? To what extent does that number inform your opinion of the degree to which catcalling is or isn’t a problem in need of addressing? And what opinion do you have, in the general case, of the argument “Well, neither I nor anyone whose opinion I care about has complained about this, so clearly it’s just a tiny minority of people doing, if it’s really a problem at all.”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/140 "2015-09-30T10:06:26Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Social groups are not randomly chosen from the population. People associate with other people like them most of the time, when they can. > > Or, to put things another way, how many times have you or people in your circle of friends catcalled a random woman on the sidewalk? To what extent does that number inform your opinion of the degree to which catcalling is or isn’t a problem in need of addressing? When I was younger, quite frequently (including myself). This was part of forming my opinion that catcalling is wrong and is a problem in need of addressing. > [@](#): > > And what opinion do you have, in the general case, of the argument “Well, neither I nor anyone whose opinion I care about has complained about this, so clearly it’s just a tiny minority of people doing, if it’s really a problem at all.”? That’s not what I’m saying – I was responding to an assertion that misandry is part of the root of feminism. I don’t believe that it is at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=8)