# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/141 "2015-09-30T11:19:38Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > She agrees. Replied to the quote you selected here, in page 2. [QUOTE=KarlGrenze] Most of the ones I could read were not talking about roles per se. Once more, they’re starting with incorrect assumptions of what feminism is. Interesting you mention qualities instead of roles, as I don’t consider what some of them wrote as “qualities”, and having someone telling me they are raises :dubious: from me. They seem to be attacking straw men, they’re not attacking the principles of it. In fact, some start with “I’m not a feminist because…”, and then write something that is totally aligned with feminism. It is slightly pointed out in one of the more recent one, which admits that there is a difference between US and other parts of the world. The reason feminism in the US may be different from other places is because some places are still fighting for rights and outcomes that women in the US got decades ago. This does not make all feminism outdated, it just means that in different places the focus of what is important will shift. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/142 "2015-09-30T12:01:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When I was younger, quite frequently (including myself). This was part of forming my opinion that catcalling is wrong and is a problem in need of addressing. This doesn’t answer the question, though. Do you still do it? Do your friends still do it? And if not, why assume that the distribution of feminists-behaving-badly is evenly distributed in your social circle, when catcallers-behaving-badly isn’t? > [@](#): > > That’s not what I’m saying – I was responding to an assertion that misandry is part of the root of feminism. I don’t believe that it is at all. I think people are complicated enough that once you get to a movement of hundreds, much less millions, original root cause matters much less than the mindset of the people actually engaging with the movement. Heck, there was a very strong anti-alcohol strain in the roots of feminism back in the suffrage era; how relevant is that particular part of feminism’s roots today? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/143 "2015-09-30T12:05:45Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > This doesn’t answer the question, though. Do you still do it? Do your friends still do it? No, and no. > [@](#): > > And if not, why assume that the distribution of feminists-behaving-badly is evenly distributed in your social circle, when catcallers-behaving-badly isn’t? I don’t think I am, though I’m not sure what you mean. And I’m not just talking about my social circle – I’m talking about all the feminists I hear from on TV and radio, and read from and about. > [@](#): > > I think people are complicated enough that once you get to a movement of hundreds, much less millions, original root cause matters much less than the mindset of the people actually engaging with the movement. Heck, there was a very strong anti-alcohol strain in the roots of feminism back in the suffrage era; how relevant is that particular part of feminism’s roots today? Fair enough. I’ll go further, then, and say that I don’t believe that misandry motivates most feminists today. It certainly doesn’t motivate my feminism, nor the feminism of the feminists I know and read about. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/144 "2015-09-30T12:19:33Z")
> [@McDoogins](#): > > From the article. > > It can be pointless and pedantic to play what some of us call “Oppression Olympics,” but in this case the discrepancy between this UN group’s complaints and the real suffering of women is too great to ignore. In a world afflicted by female genital mutilation, forced marriages and acid attacks on girls whose only crime is wanting an education, the UN has chosen to focus on the professional whinging of privileged and mendacious western activists. > > The UN has always been a joke, but in this case, by providing a platform for such ludicrously entitled windbags, they have provided us all with the punchline themselves. > > The underlined part pretty much sums it up for me. > > It’s sad that I’m not really surprised. While I agree that genital mutilation and the other things you mentioned are more serious than online death threats or harassment, it would be a very strange issue for the **United Nation Broadband Commission** to focus on. On the other hand they have [ten other departments working on that](http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/csw/csw52/statements_missions/Interagency_Statement_on_Eliminating_FGM.pdf). So it would seem that the UN agrees with you, that FGM is a very serious issue, it’s just not something the Broadband Commission is working on. I also don’t think that 73% of women using the internet fall into the category of “professional whinging of privileged and mendacious western activists.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/145 "2015-09-30T12:59:24Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Mary Daly…; Andrea Dworkin…; Robin Morgan… > > The rot of misandry in feminism goes back further than just the 3rd wave. Each described in their own right as _radical_ feminists. That is to say, not the mainstream of feminism by any reasonable definition. I assume you are capable in making a clear distiction between a radical and someone who advocates for equal rights for all, yes?; You simply choose not to (due , I can only guess, to some sort of unresolved mommy issues). Which is painfully obvious in every post you make on the subject. Which makes you look like an MRA radical and thus fertile ground for the rounds of mockery that ensue. Not because people don’t understand what you’re saying, or even because they fundamentally disagree with it (which they do). But because your arguments are wholy without merrit. If it makes you feel any better, Mary, Andrea and Robin would be roundly mocked for their radical views as well if they showed up here spouting their b.s. Alas, 2/3 are dead. So perhaps you’ll get the last word after all, once the last one passes. But given the position you’re defending, only the radicals are likely to notice or care. The rest of us will likely remain amused at best and slightly annoyed at worst by the willful ignorance on display. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/146 "2015-09-30T13:01:14Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Mockery is a very effective tool for silencing those who should not be allowed to have a voice. When mockery does not succeed, harassment and threats are used – many antifeminists have been doxxed and harassed. > > Many men and some women understand that in USA 2015 there is significant discrimination against men – male victims face [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf), men are discriminated in divorce cases, male offenders get 61% longer sentence for the same crime, male bashing is very acceptable in the media. > > Many understand it few dare to talk about it. Yes, few dare talk about it. If only we had other anti-feminism threads by the exact same person who started this thread, where questions like [whether women support prison reform](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18531795&postcount=233) were answered! Certainly something like [NOW signing on to prison reform](http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?news_id=1944) would never happen since nobody dares talk about how men are locked up for so long! Feminists have directly supported prison reform, [they’ve directly supported efforts to reduce domestic violence against both men and women, and they’ve supported changing the definition of rape to include male victims](http://now.org/blog/how-feminism-and-now-have-helped-men/). Too bad it is such a dare to talk about it, or maybe anti-feminists would know all that. What exact discrimination are you talking about in divorce? Hard to address such a generic complaint, but I think you’d find that most feminists are also for fairness in divorce cases. It’s no wonder I see so many people arguing against feminism in this thread with few feminists arguing back. It’s quite tiring to go over the same topics over and over, particularly when it’s the same person starting the almost identical threads bashing feminism repeatedly while ignoring honest attempts to answer and discuss. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/147 "2015-09-30T13:33:50Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > A few days before, someone I know told me that she’s anti-feminist. She is a stay at home mother of two, with a husband that makes ~$150k. She has degrees (including a PhD) from some of the most elite colleges. She said that being a mom is the greatest thing in her life and feminism told her that she didn’t have to be a mom. If she had pursued career instead of motherhood she would have missed out. So she thought that feminism had nothing to offer to her. > > I pointed out that feminism means women don’t have to choose between having a career and being a mom. That most mothers don’t have a choice because they can’t afford to not work. I did not bring up the many ways in which she would be screwed if anything happens to her marriage or husband, but for some feminism-induced policies (e.g. being able to own property in her own name, being entitled to child support, having an more equal opportunity to be educated – I myself was denied support for higher education by my parents in favor of my brother’s). > > I did point out that for the many millions of parents who work, feminism pushes for policies on maternity and paternity leaves, lactation rooms and such, that make being a parent much easier. > > In other words, some women are anti-feminist because of their privileged position. It is true that for a small segment of women (mostly white and upper middle class or higher, and/or conventionally attractive and young), some parts of traditional gender roles work in their favor. For some people, staying home with their children is exactly what they want to do. You’re right, of course, that most people don’t have that luxury. And it is a luxury. But being with your chid also requires sacrifices. It may be sacrifices that you’re happy to make - I certainly was. But “having it all” is a myth. It is simply a fact of life that no one person is capable of being two places at once. If the child has two parents, that certainly makes things easier. In some cases, it may even mean there’s little or no real sacrifice at all. Perhaps one parent prefers to be with his or her children, rather than making money the family may not even really need. In other cases - where nobody’s making six figures - at least they can split up the sacrifices, in whatever way makes sense to them. I know MDs who are stay at home moms. Which I understand - if I had an MD, and a spouse who was willing to support me - I’d rather stay home with my child, than spend 60 hours a week poking around in people’s orifices. One other thing: your parents didn’t “deny” you an education. My parents didn’t pay a dime toward my education - or my siblings. Out of the six of us, all have at least a college degree, and three have advanced degrees as well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/148 "2015-09-30T13:50:51Z")
The post clearly says “denied support for higher education,” not “denied education.” ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/149 "2015-09-30T17:27:49Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Feminists have directly supported prison reform, they’ve directly supported efforts to reduce domestic violence against both men and women, and they’ve supported changing the definition of rape to include male victims. Men should be grateful to feminists who help with [domestic violence against men](http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have) . Women [should not be put in prison for anything](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/150 "2015-09-30T18:12:52Z")
Ascribing anything you disagree with to feminism isn’t a very effective debate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/151 "2015-09-30T18:31:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I take it you’re a feminist? No im a special sub-type of male chauvinist pig who only oppresses non-feminist women ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/152 "2015-09-30T18:57:13Z")
Jezebel is a terrible website written by and for the very people the “anti-feminists” in this thread are arguing against. Gotta love the beginning of that second article: > [@](#): > > The argument is actually quite straightforward: There are far fewer women in prison than men to start with — women make up just 7 percent of the prison population. This means that these women are disproportionately affected by a system designed for men. So only 7 percent of the prison population is women, and _they’re_ the ones disproportionately affected?? I don’t know what to call people that are against this type of absurdity. “Anti-feminist” isn’t a good name, because I consider myself a feminist, as do many others who disagree with this sort of silliness. “Feminism” is like “Republican” or “Christian” in that there’s not one thing that everyone who claims that label can all agree on. Basically, you are a feminist if you say you are, and unfortunately a lot of whackos claim that label. You can be anti-whacko without being anti-feminist though. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/153 "2015-09-30T20:03:17Z")
Jezebel is also an infotainment site. They don’t get traffic by posting uncontroversial stuff. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/154 "2015-09-30T20:08:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So only 7 percent of the prison population is women, and _they’re_ the ones disproportionately affected?? The ones who are in prison would be a small minority within a system primarily designed by and for men. _Those women_–the 7%–would be disproportionately affected by such a system. Or so is the argument, with which you’re welcome to disagree. But it’s \*not \*saying that women are disproportionately represented in prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/155 "2015-09-30T21:12:13Z")
> [@Patricia O'Brien](#): > > The argument is actually quite straightforward: There are far fewer women in prison than men to start with — women make up just 7 percent of the prison population. This means that these women are disproportionately affected by a system designed for men. What does this idiot suggest society does with female murderers and thugs? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/156 "2015-09-30T21:16:42Z")
So prison is only for men, not women? What happened to gender equality? And I have to echo the question: Just what is society supposed to do about female murderers, then? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/157 "2015-09-30T21:47:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So prison is only for men, not women? What happened to gender equality? > > And I have to echo the question: Just what is society supposed to do about female murderers, then? If you read the article, it proposes community-based treatment for non-violent offenders, and small detention center where prisoners can be near their families for violent offenders. The article advocates this approach for both men and women, and cites research backing up the effectiveness of these programs. Basically, it’s not saying “don’t punish women”. It’s saying “warehousing people in prisons doesn’t lead to good outcomes”, which I don’t think many people can disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/158 "2015-09-30T21:52:25Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > If you read the article, it proposes community-based treatment for non-violent offenders, and **small detention center** where prisoners can be near their families for violent offenders. The article advocates this approach for both men and women, and cites research backing up the effectiveness of these programs. I’m all for being more lenient with non-violent offenders, but a prison by any other name is still a prison. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/159 "2015-09-30T22:53:12Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/160 "2015-10-01T00:05:58Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Men should be grateful to feminists who help with [domestic violence against men](http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have) . No, they shouldn’t be grateful but they should stop accusing feminists of holding positions that most of them don’t actually hold. > [@](#): > > Women [should not be put in prison for anything](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/). She seems to be advocating a social experiment, starting with women but clearly says the arguments also apply to imprisoned men. Until we know if she believes the same should apply to men, color me unimpressed with your worry. Most prison reformers agree with her, except instead of saying “women” they don’t say anything about gender, which means they’re talking about 93% men and 7% women, or simply talking about men since that is often the default when it comes to prison and society at large. I’d be perfectly happy to criticize her position as being wrong and not in line with most feminists. Finally, I’m unconvinced by you pointing out single people with certain positions when compared to a group like NOW’s official position since NOW has 550 chapters of various sizes across the USA. It’s pretty clear which is the more mainstream feminist position about issues like domestic violence and incarceration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=9)