# Women Against Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667 "2015-09-27T03:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/161 "2015-10-01T00:57:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > \ > And yes, many [feminists](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/1-wives-are-helping-kill-feminism-and-make-the-war-on-women-possible/258431/) have had a very disdainful attitude towards stay at home moms – and motherhood in general. Quite odd really, since bearing children is of course a very and uniquely womanly thing to be able to do.\ What a mess of an article. > [@](#): > > Who can possibly take feminism seriously when it allows everything, as long as women choose it? Good point, except that _is_ feminism. Then there’s this: > [@](#): > > If the movement had been serious about being serious then the idea could not have caught on that equal is how you feel. **Or that how anyone feels about anything matters at all.** Followed by: > [@](#): > > I have to admit that when I meet a woman who I know is a graduate of, say, Princeton – one who has read The Second Sex and therefore ought to know better – but is still a full-time wife,\*\* I **feel** betrayed.\*\* And then there’s this: > [@](#): > > Men know better. They look at numbers, and here is how the statistics are running years after women first started screaming and yelling and burning bras: We still earn 81 percent of what men do Except that’s bogus statistic: she’s transmitting a myth. And this: > [@](#): > > being a mother isn’t really work. Guess what? She’s not married, and never had kids. So I guess that’s how she knows that. From another one of her pieces, [I Refuse To Be A Grown-Up](http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/i-refuse-to-be-a-grown-up/274918/): > [@](#): > > I went to a party in Williamsburg, where I definitely do not live, and was 50 percent older than anyone else. When I told a gentleman that I am 45, he was shocked. He wondered what I know that Ponce de Leon did not. Apparently she’s kept her youthful beauty because… of all the drugs and sex she’s had. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/162 "2015-10-01T01:00:02Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > For some people, staying home with their children is exactly what they want to do. You’re right, of course, that most people don’t have that luxury. > > And it is a luxury. But being with your chid also requires sacrifices. It may be sacrifices that you’re happy to make - I certainly was. > > But “having it all” is a myth. It is simply a fact of life that no one person is capable of being two places at once. > > If the child has two parents, that certainly makes things easier. In some cases, it may even mean there’s little or no real sacrifice at all. Perhaps one parent prefers to be with his or her children, rather than making money the family may not even really need. In other cases - where nobody’s making six figures - at least they can split up the sacrifices, in whatever way makes sense to them. > > I know MDs who are stay at home moms. Which I understand - if I had an MD, and a spouse who was willing to support me - I’d rather stay home with my child, than spend 60 hours a week poking around in people’s orifices. What does your preference have to do with feminism? Are you saying that it’s wrong to choose to save lives rather than change diapers all day (see how spin works?)? Are you saying that everyone should make sacrifices to be a stay at home parent? If so, to what extent? I certainly am very glad I don’t have to choose between having a career and a family like so many women did before feminism. Heck, I am grateful to feminism in that I can have my career at all. (Even though I am making money that the family does not strictly speaking need – are you saying that it’s wrong somehow to have a job if you don’t need the money?) “Having it all” means having a career and a family. It does not mean simultaneously spending time on your career and your family 24/7, because that’s impossible, so being in two places at once is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > One other thing: your parents didn’t “deny” you an education. My parents didn’t pay a dime toward my education - or my siblings. Out of the six of us, all have at least a college degree, and three have advanced degrees as well. Lucky you for being born in the right country? I grew up in a third world country without a system of student loans and a very strict university entry system. If you or your family doesn’t supply the money, 90% of the time you don’t go. Grants are given to those with very very low family income, which my parents did not qualify for (they were maybe lower middle to middle class). Wages are low and there is no minimum wage, so putting oneself through school is out of the question. There is also no going back to college as an adult. It did turn out that I won a scholarship which was awarded to very few (roughly one in 20,000), came to the US for undergraduate, and now have a PhD. But the whole time while I was going up, my parents made it clear to me that they would not pay for my university education because I was a girl and that my purpose in life was to find a man and have children. Even when I was pursuing my PhD in a top university, I was still frequently told by my family this was a waste of time and I was wasting my prime husband-catching and baby-having years. Multiple people told me I would be unmarriageable – the worst fate imaginable – if I get a PhD. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/163 "2015-10-01T01:11:00Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I don’t plan on participating in any more anti-3rd wave gender feminism threads. If they’re all as tedious and unproductive as this one, what’s the point? I hope you’ll change your mind. I’ve admired your contributions. The trick is to remember you’re in charge of your own emotions: _you don’t have to be frustrated_. You can choose not to be. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/164 "2015-10-01T12:32:00Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > “Feminism” is like “Republican” or “Christian” in that there’s not one thing that everyone who claims that label can all agree on. Basically, you are a feminist if you say you are, and unfortunately a lot of whackos claim that label. You can be anti-whacko without being anti-feminist though. Or if there are some core things that everyone agrees upon, those get treated as _“no shit, DUUHHH!”_ obvious no-brainer truths self evident that should not need an ideology or a God or a movement to focus and express – as the quote above, “I don’t need to fight for what I already have”. Indeed you can be anti-wacko without being antifeminist. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/165 "2015-10-01T21:26:01Z")
Generally Anglosphere has strong feminist values and little tolerance for dissent. According to a [YouGov Poll](https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/today_uk_import/YG-Archives-Pol-YouGov-EqualityWomen-011010.pdf), 40% of women and 16% of men are feminists, while 1% of women and 8% of men are antifeminists. When I was more vocal on discrimination against men, I had received a barrage of death threats. I contacted Law Enforcement but as of 1998 they hardly knew what Internet is. Since then I was much quieter on these issues. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/166 "2015-10-02T07:46:11Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I didn’t see her (or him) saying that. Since what she actually said is there, why are you putting words in her mouth? > > “Constructive challenges”? Are those the only kind that are allowed? > > Or are they the only ones you’re willing to take seriously? I addressed most of this in a later post, so I won’t repeat myself. > [@LinusK](#): > > Being old has its own disadvantages - for example, getting set in your ways. Becoming incapable of absorbing new information. Resisting change. You might remember observing that, back when you were young. > [@LinusK](#): > > Guess what? She’s not married, and never had kids. So I guess that’s how she knows that. > > From another one of her pieces, [I Refuse To Be A Grown-Up](http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/i-refuse-to-be-a-grown-up/274918/): > > Apparently she’s kept her youthful beauty because… of all the drugs and sex she’s had. If you really all believe this, then you’ve just invalidated the opinion of the woman in her 60’s you quoted earlier. Interesting that you have this attitude about older women, especially when they don’t adhere to a traditional life script that you approve of. This is a typical MRA POV. Very telling as to what they [really think of women](http://www.returnofkings.com/27125/unmarried-older-women-need-to-go-away): For women, 26 is not the new 16; 30 is not the new 18; 40 is not the new 20. A woman’s peak beauty and attractiveness has a short lived shelf life and if she chooses to ignore the expiry date then to hell with ‘em. There’s a lot more for men to feel guilty about in this world then the stink coming from some expired slut meat. All these complaining older women need to actually become invisible and disappear from society. At least their younger sisters who are complaining have the benefit of still being bangable. That’s why I said, give these tumblr women some time with their fellow anti-feminists and get back to them. > [@Frylock](#): > > I mean, you’re a fan of Karen Straughan, in the sense that you often refer to her stuff positively–and she is a central case of MRA beliefs. If you think she’s right about most things, then you are an MRA yourself. Exactly. He keeps stressing that he knows little to nothing about MRA, MGTOW, and PUA. How is that possible when it’s been brought up in previous threads with cites and quotes, he is so obviously fixated on this issue, and so into Karen Straughan? And yet he just happens to use all their vernacular, and follows their script to the letter. It’s like someone saying he’s a big fan of Bud Abbott, but doesn’t know who Lou Costello is. **LinusK** , your mask is slipping. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/167 "2015-10-03T21:05:27Z")
> [@camille](#): > > It’s called patriarchy because the power and social structures of society were shaped by men. And even though there have been some changes, the patriarchal framework, cultural mores, and mindset still exists. > > The wealthy either have power, or control the powerful, and the higher up you go on the rungs of power and influence, the more patriarchal it gets. > > Of the 72 most powerful people in the world named by Forbes, only nine of them are women. About 95% of CEOs are men. Over 75% of Wall Street bankers are men. The majority of political legislative seats around the world are men. The military, defense industry, and law enforcement are dominated by men. Who’s got all the weapons? Men. Who’s got their fingers on the buttons, knows the codes to set off Armageddon? Men. Here in the US, we have yet to see a female President or Vice-President. > > So yes, this system is gamed for the wealthy and powerful few, at the expense of the majority, both men and women. > > But the influence of cultural patriarchy is in play as well: We are descended from ethnic cultures that are patriarchal. The three major religions are patriarchal. The majority of US women follow the patrilineal custom of taking their husband’s surname when they marry, as will their children. These are some of the things that perpetuates both the mindset and acceptance of a patriarchal society. > > How can anyone think there is no such thing as patriarchy? It doesn’t mean that all men are equally powerful. It’s not about individuals, it’s a societal framework. And as it’s been said, over and over, _it limits most men as well_. Both the power structure _and_ the mindset. Let me ask you something: why do you think there are more men in prison than women? Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? Why do you think more little boys are diagnosed with ADHD, and drugged for their condition, than girls? Why do you think women usually get custody after a divorce? Why do men who \*do \* get custody get less court- ordered child support than women? Why do you think women - if they are ordered to pay it - pay less child support than men? Why do you think men die sooner than women? Why do women get lesser sentences than men, for the same crimes? Why do you think men who make the mistake of calling domestic abuse hotlines get referred to abuser programs? Or asked what they did to deserve it? Or simply get laughed at? Why do you think the California legislature passed a law that _defined_ domestic abuse as a crime - but only if it happened to a woman? And finally, why are women so afraid of bugs? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/168 "2015-10-03T22:33:11Z")
Why do you hate women? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/169 "2015-10-03T23:33:27Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Let me ask you something: why do you think there are more men in prison than women? > > Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? > > Why do you think more little boys are diagnosed with ADHD, and drugged for their condition, than girls? > > Why do you think women usually get custody after a divorce? Why do men who \*do \* get custody get less court- ordered child support than women? Why do you think women - if they are ordered to pay it - pay less child support than men? > > Why do you think men die sooner than women? > > Why do women get lesser sentences than men, for the same crimes? > > Why do you think men who make the mistake of calling domestic abuse hotlines get referred to abuser programs? Or asked what they did to deserve it? Or simply get laughed at? > > Why do you think the California legislature passed a law that _defined_ domestic abuse as a crime - but only if it happened to a woman? > > And finally, why are women so afraid of bugs? That has been the case since at least 1990s. But only since the rise of Social Networks do more and more men realize that this is the case. I am grateful to every man and especially every woman who raises awareness of these issues. Those who make Youtube videos on these issues suffer terrible personal abuse from hundreds of Social Justice Warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/170 "2015-10-03T23:53:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Let me ask you something: why do you think there are more men in prison than women? > > Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? > > Why do you think more little boys are diagnosed with ADHD, and drugged for their condition, than girls? > > Why do you think women usually get custody after a divorce? Why do men who \*do \* get custody get less court- ordered child support than women? Why do you think women - if they are ordered to pay it - pay less child support than men? > > Why do you think men die sooner than women? > > Why do women get lesser sentences than men, for the same crimes? > > Why do you think men who make the mistake of calling domestic abuse hotlines get referred to abuser programs? Or asked what they did to deserve it? Or simply get laughed at? > > Why do you think the California legislature passed a law that _defined_ domestic abuse as a crime - but only if it happened to a woman? > > And finally, why are women so afraid of bugs? …you do realize that most, if not all of these questions were answered in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=762527), don’t you? You might want to pay particular attention to the posts in that thread that you completely ignored, those are the ones with the answers. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/171 "2015-10-04T00:49:16Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Let me ask you something: why do you think there are more men in prison than women? > > Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? > > Why do you think more little boys are diagnosed with ADHD, and drugged for their condition, than girls? > > Why do you think women usually get custody after a divorce? Why do men who \*do \* get custody get less court- ordered child support than women? Why do you think women - if they are ordered to pay it - pay less child support than men? > > Why do you think men die sooner than women? > > Why do women get lesser sentences than men, for the same crimes? > > Why do you think men who make the mistake of calling domestic abuse hotlines get referred to abuser programs? Or asked what they did to deserve it? Or simply get laughed at? > > Why do you think the California legislature passed a law that _defined_ domestic abuse as a crime - but only if it happened to a woman? > > And finally, why are women so afraid of bugs? FTR , I have never feared bugs. I used to play with them ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/172 "2015-10-04T02:04:32Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > snip > > Why do you think men commit suicide more often than women? > snip > > Why do you think men die sooner than women? > > snip? 1. Several reasons [Why Men Die Younger than Women - Page 2](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/555221_2) 2. You’re better at suicide than we are. [http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-20/why-do-more-men-commit-suicide](http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-20/why-do-more-men-commit-suicide) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/173 "2015-10-04T22:03:23Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > No im a special sub-type of male chauvinist pig who only oppresses non-feminist women Definitely a feminist. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/174 "2015-10-04T22:04:27Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Why do you hate women? Why are you so predictable? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/175 "2015-10-04T22:45:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Jezebel is a terrible website written by and for the very people the “anti-feminists” in this thread are arguing against. Gotta love the beginning of that second article: > > > [@](#): > > > > The argument is actually quite straightforward: There are far fewer women in prison than men to start with — women make up just 7 percent of the prison population. This means that these women are disproportionately affected by a system designed for men. > > So only 7 percent of the prison population is women, and _they’re_ the ones disproportionately affected?? > > I don’t know what to call people that are against this type of absurdity. “Anti-feminist” isn’t a good name, because I consider myself a feminist, as do many others who disagree with this sort of silliness. > > “Feminism” is like “Republican” or “Christian” in that there’s not one thing that everyone who claims that label can all agree on. Basically, you are a feminist if you say you are, and unfortunately a lot of whackos claim that label. You can be anti-whacko without being anti-feminist though. White women in America are the most privileged people ever to have existed. Feminists are _forced_ to make up stuff to feel oppressed about. Take this, for example: [Why Women Need To Start Asking Men Out…Because Men Have No Balls](http://elitedaily.com/dating/men-pssies-women-need-start-asking-men-dates/746965/) > [@](#): > > Ladies, it’s been said before, but I’ll say it again: They just don’t make ‘em like they used to. > > There’s no door-holding, no hand-holding and definitely no free drinks. There’s no taking off hats or courting through invitations. There are no smooth moves, no jackets to dinner. There are no flowers, no tables by candlelight. But, most importantly, there are no dates. > > If you’re a single woman, you probably envisioned your twenties as a roaring social scene full of expensive dinners and lavish nights out. You probably thought you’d have a boyfriend, or at least a few dates a week. > > You probably thought you’d meet a guy at a bar and that he’d ask for your number. You probably thought you’d be on your way to dinner next week. > > After too many nights spent in bars and one too many phone numbers given out, you’ve probably realized the sad truth of the situation. You’re not going on any dates or being courted in any type of manner because, unfortunately, men these days are cowards. > … The author goes on to bash men for our numerous failings. But the article itself raises an interesting point: who, or what, makes men? ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/176 "2015-10-04T22:52:23Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Why are you so predictable? Why is **Lamia** so predictable? That is fucking _ **hilarious** _. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/177 "2015-10-04T23:30:27Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > That has been the case since at least 1990s. But only since the rise of Social Networks do more and more men realize that this is the case. > > I am grateful to every man and especially every woman who raises awareness of these issues. > > Those who make Youtube videos on these issues suffer terrible personal abuse from hundreds of Social Justice Warriors. There’s tons of research that shows that within personal relationships, women are as likely to use violence as men. That doesn’t fit feminist framing of the issue, however. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/178 "2015-10-04T23:37:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s tons of research that shows that within personal relationships, women are as likely to use violence as men. > > That doesn’t fit feminist framing of the issue, however. There’s tons of research that shows that women are much, much more likely to be severely injured or killed by domestic violence. This reality does fit the feminist framing of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/179 "2015-10-04T23:49:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Why are you so predictable? Not as predictable as you. You’ve been starting essentially the same thread over and over again for months. They’re so repetitive that you can’t tell the difference between them yourself, as we saw in your _last_ thread about the evils of feminism. Many of your posts consist largely of material cut and pasted from elsewhere, and while you occasionally manage to put things in your own words there’s never an original thought behind them. That’s presumably why you can’t answer direct questions: doing so would require you to think about something for yourself. You’re like a Tumblr feed of misogyny, only without the animated GIFs. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667/180 "2015-10-05T12:43:51Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Why are you so predictable? Why are you so threatened by women? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-against-feminism/732667.md?page=10)