# "Women and Children First!" on fated Italian cruise: policy or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543 "2012-01-14T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/1 "2012-01-14T23:32:45Z")
A crew member apparently shouted this during the loading of lifeboats. Standard operating procedure or chivalry? > **[Like a scene out of the film 'Titanic,' chaos consumed listing ship | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/01/14/world/europe/italy-cruise-scene/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)** > > Chaos reigned aboard the Costa Concordia on Friday after it ran aground off the Italian island of Giglio, passengers and crew say. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/2 "2012-01-15T06:23:43Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > Standard operating procedure or chivalry? Maybe efficiency? Women & children weigh less, so you can get more of them into the first lifeboats. Thus more lives saved. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/3 "2012-01-15T06:38:28Z")
I always understood the reality to be “first class passengers first, then crew, then the people left scramble for the remaining boats”. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/4 "2012-01-15T07:00:45Z")
I hope Gloria Steinem doesn’t hear about this. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/5 "2012-01-15T07:04:07Z")
It may be chivalrous, but it’s also SOP as far as I know. Whether it’s SOP by being traditional or by somebody actually having bothered put it down on paper is a different question. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/6 "2012-01-15T08:35:17Z")
It’s a lawsuit waiting to happen, is what it is. ‘The worst part came when a lifeboat crew member told everyone, “Women and children first,” Smith said. “All these families who were clinging to each other had to be separated,” he added.’ So not only is it the ultimate sexism, it’s also the requirement for children to be torn from the arms of their fathers, and made to leave those men to the vicissitudes of a watery fate. I just hope their weren’t any single fathers on there. So with the needless sexual discrimination, the emotional trauma to children and so on, I think there are several grounds here for some serious suing. ---
**Author:** ![Zep\_Tepi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@Zep\_Tepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zep_Tepi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/7 "2012-01-15T13:18:49Z")
We had a shipwreck off the coast of South Africa some years ago. the boat was called the Oceanos. When the lifeboats were launched, all of the Greek crew and the Greek Captain were on the first lifeboat. Later the captain said that he felt that he could control the rescue better from dry land. Fortunately, no lives were lost due to some heroic people who stayed onboard to assist in the helicopter rescue. I believe that the first time that “Women and Children first” was said was on the sinking of the troop ship the Birkenhead off the South African coastline in 1852 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/8 "2012-01-15T13:33:24Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > It’s a lawsuit waiting to happen, is what it is. > > ‘The worst part came when a lifeboat crew member told everyone, “Women and children first,” Smith said. “All these families who were clinging to each other had to be separated,” he added.’ > > So not only is it the ultimate sexism, it’s also the requirement for children to be torn from the arms of their fathers, and made to leave those men to the vicissitudes of a watery fate. I just hope their weren’t any single fathers on there. > > So with the needless sexual discrimination, the emotional trauma to children and so on, I think there are several grounds here for some serious suing. Really? What is the cause of action? ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/9 "2012-01-15T16:09:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? What is the cause of action? Kidnapping…negligent infliction of emotion distress…battery…loss of consortium… just run it all up the flagpole. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/10 "2012-01-15T16:25:11Z")
> [@Zep\_Tepi](#): > > I believe that the first time that “Women and Children first” was said was on the sinking of the troop ship the Birkenhead off the South African coastline in 1852 Yes, it’s known as the Birkenhead Drill. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/11 "2012-01-15T16:32:28Z")
> [@Carnacki](#): > > Kidnapping…negligent infliction of emotion distress…battery…loss of consortium… just run it all up the flagpole. 🙂 I really cannot think of any rational Court which would think that saying is women and children first is irrational and negligent. And kidnapping and battery are _criminal_ acts. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/12 "2012-01-15T16:59:42Z")
Chivalry, but children are probably a lot more likely to become hysterical and start screaming and crying so it probably makes sense to get the kids off first anyway. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/13 "2012-01-15T17:15:07Z")
It’s chivalry, but there is some sense behind it. Kids are often helpless and scared, so it makes sense to get them squared away first. And who are kids most likely to be with? Their mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/14 "2012-01-15T18:24:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I really cannot think of any rational Court which would think that saying is women and children first is irrational and negligent. > > And kidnapping and battery are _criminal_ acts. I’m not saying it’s a winning case, but the question was “what’s the cause of action”… And battery is a tort. I assume kidnapping is too, although I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/15 "2012-01-15T18:38:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I always understood the reality to be “first class passengers first, then crew, then the people left scramble for the remaining boats”. Not correct in the case of _Titanic_. The survival rate among women in third class was considerably higher than among men in first class or than crew. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/16 "2012-01-15T18:49:29Z")
When access to lifeboats is limited, as it was in this case, then you have to triage somehow. Unfortunately, from the article comments of people who’ve taken cruises or worked on cruises, the crew’s training in safety procedures appeared to be nonexistent. And what should have been a safety briefing for the passengers turned out to be a sales pitch. So neither the crew nor the passengers had any fucking idea what to do. And the people appear to not have been provided with food or clothing after leaving most of their valuables and cash behind. Being the parent company, Carnival’s probably going to take it in the ass on this one. There may actually be some lawsuits (3 wrongful death suits at least), but it won’t have anything to do with women and children first. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/17 "2012-01-15T18:55:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s chivalry, but there is some sense behind it. Kids are often helpless and scared, so it makes sense to get them squared away first. And who are kids most likely to be with? Their mothers. This makes perfect sense, although it didn’t cross my mind at all when thinking about it. I imagine in this day and age its unlikely that an actual policy would specify women and children, so I wonder if this particular crew member saw kids panicking or simply shouted it out because the Titanic was seared in his memory… ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/18 "2012-01-15T19:05:04Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > This makes perfect sense, although it didn’t cross my mind at all when thinking about it. It’s an inadequate explanation. It would adequately explain a policy of “children and their mothers first”, and would equally explain a policy of “children and one accompanying parent first”. But if you’re seeking to explain a policy that allows childless women to board the lifeboat while denying boarding to men accompanying their children, you are back to chivalry. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/19 "2012-01-15T19:23:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I always understood the reality to be “first class passengers first, then crew, then the people left scramble for the remaining boats”. Do you have a pessimistic view on _everything_? Compare the percentages of women and children of all classes rescued on the Titanic with those of men from all classes. It doesn’t support _your_ reality. 46% of the Third Class Women saved vs. 33% of First Class men. Second Class men, 8%. Second Class children, 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/20 "2012-01-15T20:18:04Z")
When I’ve sailed with Holland America the boat drill on the first day is extremely serious, very well run, profoundly professional, and does make the women stand in front. They lower a boat on each side so everybody understands exactly what would happen, and it’s sort of a confidence-boosting exercise as well, as they explain exactly what’s in each boat, make sure your life jackets are worn properly, and find out if anybody is going to need extra help. I’m always very distressed about the Birkenhead bit, but it’s not worth it to harass the crew about it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543.md?page=2)