# "Women and Children First!" on fated Italian cruise: policy or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543 "2012-01-14T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/41 "2012-01-16T07:28:12Z")
I think it is the responsibility of all adult to place children ahead of themselves when it comes to a life or death situation such as this. I don’t exactly know the rationalization for it, but if I my kids were not yet adults, they will be getting off before any of you, I’ll guarantee it. And I’ll do the same for the children of others too. If you want to argue about the men and women thing go ahead. I’ll be busy making sure my wife gets on a life boat, and making sure any fat ass pushing others out of his way ends up in the water. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/42 "2012-01-16T08:20:47Z")
> [@Chickenwrangler](#): > > I always thought the “Women and children first” was for survival of our species. > > Possibly not so relevant these days but back in time saving the women and children would ensure survival of your group. > > If there is only one man and some women the group will survive but if only one woman no matter how many men the chances of survival for your group are slim. Why yes, when the Birkenhead went down those women were our only chance of surviving the sabertooth threat…oh, wait. Look, it’s one thing when it’s soldiers versus civilians (as it was in the Birkenhead.) Otherwise, seriously, I’m more important than a father of young children? The fuck I am. Anyway, “women and children first” at this point is most likely to cause fear and confusion, which are the enemies of safe evacuation. (By the way, when I’ve done cruises they’ve always shown us how they get the boats down manually in case of a severe list. I mean, I guess there’s severe and then SEVERE, but I’ve always been given to understand that there are ways to make the boats work in the event of a serious tilt.) Would I leave my fiance because I’ve got a specific set of plumbing? Honestly, when it comes down to it I can better survive a cold water dunking because of my weak feminine body. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/43 "2012-01-16T11:50:48Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Look, it’s one thing when it’s soldiers versus civilians (as it was in the Birkenhead.) Indeed, I suspect the Birkenhead situation was somewhat misinterpreted in the popular opinion of the time. The Birkenhead was carrying over 600 people, of whom only 20 were women or children. They could only launch three small boats; under that particular circumstance “women and children first” makes utilitarian sense as a way to choose who got to go in the boats. In any case, it wasn’t exactly about the loading of the boats; the heroism of the soldiers and crew on the Birkenhead was that they followed the order not to swim over to the boats - and thus overload them - once the ship sank. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/44 "2012-01-16T16:00:52Z")
It may once have had to do exclusively with chivalry, but in the modern world it has more to do with the practicalities - what you want to avoid is a disorderly chaoitic rush and fight for seats. One way to do that is to insist that the (as a generality) weakest go first, and the largest and strongest remain; this also makes sense in terms of maximizing survival, as the largest and strongest are likely to survive longer hypothermia and swimming. Since there is not going to be time to determine who is weak and who is large and strong/a good swimmer in the chaos of an evacuation - then, use a generality (women and children). Won’t always be accurate but a reasonable approximation, and has enough cultural resonance to be possibly enforcable. Having an assigned seat in a particular lifeboat also makes sense, but what if (as in this case) the list of the ship prevents launching boats from one side? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/45 "2012-01-16T17:49:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You do realize that in some cultures it’s seen as perfectly acceptable for a man to have more than one wife simultaneously? > > Women are the bottleneck of human reproduction. The more women, the more quickly a population can rebuild. One woman + five men is still only one baby a year (excluding twins). One man + five women is five babies per year. Back when maintaining your population was a survival issue ensuring sufficient women was quite important. We’re talking about cruise ships carrying passengers on vacation, not a starship carrying colonists to start a new civilization on a distant planet. And given the demograhics of cruise ship passengers a great many of those women are past reproductive age; they wouldn’t be any more useful in a population bottleneck then men. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/46 "2012-01-16T20:01:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think it is the responsibility of all adult to place children ahead of themselves when it comes to a life or death situation such as this. I don’t exactly know the rationalization for it, but if I my kids were not yet adults, they will be getting off before any of you, I’ll guarantee it. And I’ll do the same for the children of others too. If you want to argue about the men and women thing go ahead. I’ll be busy making sure my wife gets on a life boat, and making sure any fat ass pushing others out of his way ends up in the water. The trouble with that is that the ship was listing, which eventually led to some of the lifeboats being unusable. Filling the boats as quickly as possible on a first come first served basis makes for the best utilisation of the available seats. Instead I’ve heard a man interviewed on the radio talking about abseling out of a lifeboat onto a lower deck of the ship, the opportunity to use the lifeboat missed. If you want to target weaker people to get off first, then you target the elderly, disabled and children with their parents or legal guardians. I’ve been assured that the possession of a vagina doesn’t count as a disability, so a policy specifically prioritising any old female over those with zimmer frames or wheelchairs is fundamentally unjust, much more so than simply loading up whoever turns up at the life boat. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/47 "2012-01-16T20:22:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? What is the cause of action? A ship’s staff has a duty of care to the passengers, which requires that in the event of a disaster they will save as many as possible and avert as much suffering as possible. There seem to have been six confirmed deaths at this point, all the ones I can find mentioned are male, and most of them died in the water, one old man had a heart attack on going into the cold water. Another was found on the boat with a lifejacket on. The decision to prioritise womenandchildren when they knew the ship was listing very quickly eventually meant those lifeboats couldn’t be used, negligent administration of their only means of escape is a breach of their duty of care to the passengers. Choosing to use their limited resources only on women is a breach of their duty of care towards the male passengers which seems to have caused several deaths. Deaths caused by negligence and conscious sexual discrimination seems likely to be actionable. But then I ain’t no fancy pants lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/48 "2012-01-16T20:37:07Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The trouble with that is that the ship was listing, which eventually led to some of the lifeboats being unusable. Filling the boats as quickly as possible on a first come first served basis makes for the best utilisation of the available seats. Instead I’ve heard a man interviewed on the radio talking about abseling out of a lifeboat onto a lower deck of the ship, the opportunity to use the lifeboat missed. > > If you want to target weaker people to get off first, then you target the elderly, disabled and children with their parents or legal guardians. I’ve been assured that the possession of a vagina doesn’t count as a disability, so a policy specifically prioritising any old female over those with zimmer frames or wheelchairs is fundamentally unjust, much more so than simply loading up whoever turns up at the life boat. This is partly why I suspect that the justification for such a policy (where it exists) isn’t justice, but some sort of crowd control. ---
**Author:** ![Galty\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7c8e57/32.png) [@Galty\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galty_Boy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/49 "2012-01-16T20:41:44Z")
It may well have been a passenger, who said that? ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/50 "2012-01-16T21:43:51Z")
The BBC have run an article today about the rules of evacuating a ship and the women and children first convention: [Costa Concordia: The rules of evacuating a ship - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16576289) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/51 "2012-01-17T12:59:06Z")
I just heard an interview on the radio with a survivor of the shipwreck. In this case, it appears that the policy was “Captain and crew first, passengers left to fend for themselves.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/52 "2012-01-17T18:11:13Z")
Fortunately, there were a considerable number of clear-headed passengers, at least a few with prior sailing experience, minimal panic, and everyone remembered their life jacket. Really, it is so sad that the _passengers_ seemed to have a better grip on the situation than the senior crew (apparently crew like housekeepers and waiters were actually trying to help passengers, but the officers? _[expletives deleted])_ On the upside - 4000+ people made it to shore alive. That is GOOD news. It’s is tragic for the ones that didn’t make it, of course, but this could have been so much worse and I’m glad it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/53 "2012-01-17T23:22:56Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Do you have a pessimistic view on _everything_? Compare the percentages of women and children of all classes rescued on the Titanic with those of men from all classes. It doesn’t support _your_ reality. > > 46% of the Third Class Women saved vs. 33% of First Class men. Second Class men, 8%. Second Class children, 100%. You left out 97% First Class women vs. 86% Second Class women and 49% Third Class women. Der Trihs’ main point stands: The rich got off first. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/54 "2012-01-17T23:35:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The ship is sinking. There are hundreds of terrified people trying to get off. Do you think anyone has the time to ascertain whether or not the people are actually childless? “Women and children first” are easy to verify and manage. You quoted me and posted this as if in disagreement with something I said. Please read my post more carefully. I have expressed no opinion as to the merits of “women and children first” or any other method of allocating lifeboat spaces. My comment referred to an earlier poster’s suggested reason for the “women and children first” policy. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/55 "2012-01-18T00:37:24Z")
> [@Lazlo](#): > > The rich got off first. Provided they were women. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/56 "2012-01-18T01:28:37Z")
the tape of the captain of the cruise ship and the coast guard is very illuminating. the sad thing is this is real life and the captain seems to think he is in a monty python skit. when ordered to get off the life boat and reboard the ship and report what the situation is… the captain comes back with: it’s dark. good heavens. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/57 "2012-01-18T05:16:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > On the upside - 4000+ people made it to shore alive. That is GOOD news. It’s is tragic for the ones that didn’t make it, of course, but this could have been so much worse and I’m glad it wasn’t. Indeed it is. It looks like the final totals will be about 99.5% survived. That’s really incredible,whomever is responsible. ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/58 "2012-01-18T05:41:45Z")
Its my understanding that in the sinking of the Titanic one famous woman (perhaps more?) refused to be separated from her husband. That, plus the realization that most of the women saved would then be widows with little means to support their families (before S.S. and middle class women with jobs), caused a rethinking of the “women and children first” rule. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/59 "2012-01-18T12:55:37Z")
> [@svd678](#): > > Its my understanding that in the sinking of the Titanic one famous woman (perhaps more?) refused to be separated from her husband. That, plus the realization that most of the women saved would then be widows with little means to support their families (before S.S. and middle class women with jobs), caused a rethinking of the “women and children first” rule. In those days, losing your dad meant losing your family’s breadwinner. Most of those women and children who survived were reduced to poverty, as were the families of the crew who died. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543/60 "2012-01-18T15:00:00Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > When I’ve sailed with Holland America the boat drill on the first day is extremely serious, very well run, profoundly professional, and does make the women stand in front. They lower a boat on each side so everybody understands exactly what would happen, and it’s sort of a confidence-boosting exercise as well, as they explain exactly what’s in each boat, make sure your life jackets are worn properly, and find out if anybody is going to need extra help. > > I’m always very distressed about the Birkenhead bit, but it’s not worth it to harass the crew about it. This is really interesting. I have been on a half dozen cruises, all on Carnival brand ships ( Holland America and Costa are both Carnival brands ) and I have never seen a REAL lifeboat drill. The mandatory musters always consisted of sitting in a nightclub or theatre with your lifejacket and listening to a review of ship safety procedures but the actual procedure described was "get your lifejacket and show up here – “here” being the theatre or nightclub that is your assigned “muster station” to await further instruction…no one ever reviewed what the “further instructions” might be, no one ever went outdoors and certainly I never saw anyone lower a lifeboat or review procedures for being assigned a lifeboat or getting in a lifeboat. I am wondering if maybe they DID do a muster drill on the wrecked ship but it was a lame one like the ones I’ve described ( I saw a reference in another thread about a muster drill that was little more than a sales pitch)…I have trouble believing they would skip it entirely as it is also the time when they review the rules of conduct abord the ship and notify you of behaviors that could get you kicked off. I bet they are much more serious now…I’ll find out in a few hours…sailing today !! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-children-first-on-fated-italian-cruise-policy-or-not/609543.md?page=4)