# Women and cleavage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892 "2014-06-28T22:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/241 "2014-07-06T05:11:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I think overstated discontent toward the behavior of a few creepy men How many is a few? Is this another one of your surveys? 😉 > [@](#): > > If you find a creep he’s gonna be a creep no matter what. If you can change that, then I’ll worship at your idol. This is what I was asking you before: do you really think people are just born creeps or non-creeps, and there’s nothing that can affect their behavior? That seems like very lazy thinking. > [@Crawlspace](#): > > The repeated requests to define “revealing clothing”, as if there’s some ambiguity about what cleavage is that needs to be resolved before reasonable discourse can take place, while taking a “we know it when we see it” approach to ogling was what was nagging at me. We all know what cleavage is. We’re asking about _revealing_ because several posters have said a woman who shows too much skin ought to know what she’s in for and shouldn’t complain. > [@](#): > > But for some reason it _is_ OK to expect men (and gay women I suppose) to intuitively grok if, how and how long they can look at a part of a woman’s body she chose to leave exposed and that they find aesthetically pleasing. Aren’t most people taught “don’t stare” as children? There’s really nothing else to that part of it. If you take a quick glance at someone you’re not that likely to have a problem; if you stop what you’re doing and stare, there’s a good chance you’ll make someone else uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/242 "2014-07-06T05:21:33Z")
I think it’s funny watching movies from the 1950’s when the “pointy look” was in. Man a woman could take out an eye with those suckers! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/243 "2014-07-06T09:52:03Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Unlike cleavage, which is easily concealed. So is the solution having women wear burqa? > [@](#): > > In terms of simply looking, it’s unfair for them to expect others to know precisely how long they can take an interest in their particular quirk before it becomes offensive. I thought about this today, a hot, humid summer day. A bunch of us families were at the park and one of the women was wearing something which, gasp, showed some cleavage. Her husband, also one of the friends, was there and the rest of us husbands managed the whole morning to interact normally without staring at her boobs. Is it really that difficult? > [@](#): > > That’s kind of my whole point. As it stands, by looking at their cleavage, no matter how briefly or innocently, by simply looking at something that’s only there to be looked at because of choices they made you became responsible for how they feel. I don’t see the logic in it. You’ve invented a strawman here. If you cannot get the difference between an innocent glance and gawking, then learn to not look. It really is that simply. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/244 "2014-07-06T13:28:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I think it’s funny watching movies from the 1950’s when the “pointy look” was in. > > Man a woman could take out an eye with those suckers! “Confirmed, his eyes have nipple-lock…” “CIC to Fire Control: **Fire…! Fire…! Fire…!** ” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/245 "2014-07-06T13:36:15Z")
At a 4th party last night there was a pregnant pause when we all saw hotdog condiments slide off a woman’s bun, going directly down her cleavage. Nobody wanted to be the first to laugh. Then someone did and all joined. Nice group of people, so nobody offered to go in after it. ETA: it was diced onion, sauerkraut, mustard, relish. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/246 "2014-07-06T20:15:14Z")
People need to be mindful of walking that fine line between staring and leering. If you’re not sure, it’s always best to err on the side of caution. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/247 "2014-07-06T21:48:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It is not unfair to “expect people to know precisely how long they can take an interest in their particular quirk” because the rule of thumb is that if people notice you staring at them–for whatever reason–you’re liable to cause offense. Do you reckon that the rule of thumb is the same for each individual, or that there is a wide tolerance? Do you suppose some might take offense if you avoid looking at them/the affected area? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So now your opinion has officially jumped the shark. Having functional eyesight that allows you to, you know, actually _see_ is not the same thing as gawking. Seeing and staring are not synonyms. If someone thinks I’m a gawker because I have the audacity to not be blind, then that would make them an idiot and I couldn’t care less about that. So you’re saying that to a certain extent you get to determine where the line is and whether what you’re doing is gawking or simply seeing? And in those cases if someone were to take offense it wouldn’t be your fault? Where is this line and is it cross-cultural and universally applicable? The Fonz isn’t sailing over a shark on water skis here. This point was actually the basis for my involvement in the thread. Martian Bigfoot expressed guilt over fleeting glances at women. Dangerosa responded that it was a proper sense of shame for gawking. If you search for “caught ogling” it seems to have a very wide definition. > [@Marley23](#): > > We all know what cleavage is. We’re asking about _revealing_ because several posters have said a woman who shows too much skin ought to know what she’s in for and shouldn’t complain. Sure. But can you appreciate the difference between saying, “[she] ought to know what she’s in for and shouldn’t complain” and “if the thought of someone looking at your cleavage makes you particularly uncomfortable, then perhaps you shouldn’t bare your cleavage.” The latter, which is what I’m saying, is that any heightened sensitivity a woman feels when her cleavage is visible, any narrowing in her tolerances of what she considers “ogling” when it comes to her cleavage is not the responsibility of anyone but herself. > [@Marley23](#): > > Aren’t most people taught “don’t stare” as children? There’s really nothing else to that part of it. If you take a quick glance at someone you’re not that likely to have a problem; if you stop what you’re doing and stare, there’s a good chance you’ll make someone else uncomfortable. And we’re right back where we started. What’s staring? How long is a quick look? Who sets the standards and gets to decide what’s offensive? Is it the same for all body parts or does it vary? If it varies, why? If while scanning your surroundings your eyes fix on a woman’s cleavage for what most people would consider brief moment, but she sees it and takes offense are you at fault for her discomfort? Is there ever a point at which the offense taking can be blown off as an over-reaction? > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > So is the solution having women wear burqa? Yes. That is correct. That is the solution. That is the only possible alternative. It was a thoroughly well thought out suggestion when proffered on page 1 and it’s even more appropriate now. In a perfect world women would have other alternatives to tops that reveal cleavage; articles of clothing like [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+crew+neck+shirt&client=firefox-a&hs=zjv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Zr-5U7ztFYeCqga2rYKgBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699) and [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+turtleneck&client=firefox-a&hs=I6a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=yr-5U4vMEZGfqAbW5oDoDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1056&bih=699) and many of [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+golf+shirt&client=firefox-a&hs=Jkv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=er-5U-SFGNODqgbx3IKoBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699#channel=sb&q=women%27s+collared+shirt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch) and [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+jewel+neck&client=firefox-a&hs=ikv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7-5U8f3MdSYqAbRqIKgDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699), but sadly they are from a bygone era. There is simply no middle ground anymore. They must walk around in pasties or shield themselves with a burqa. Woe be unto them. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/248 "2014-07-06T23:23:40Z")
I wear a jewel neck a lot - doesn’t keep men from gawking. That and turtlenecks are the work neckline. Even my scoop neck tank tops don’t show breast tissue unless you happen to be looking down my shirt. And sometimes I go out with my husband, and I wear something that does show the curve of my breasts. He likes that. That doesn’t mean I want the waiter staring down my shirt, or the bartender asking my breasts what they would like to drink. And yes, I do expect men to behave better. And sometimes, I don’t have too much choice - I haven’t seen a lot of swimsuits with a jewel neckline. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/249 "2014-07-07T03:00:20Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Sure. But can you appreciate the difference between saying, “[she] ought to know what she’s in for and shouldn’t complain” and “if the thought of someone looking at your cleavage makes you particularly uncomfortable, then perhaps you shouldn’t bare your cleavage.” I hate to tell you this, but both statements are stupid. And they both tend to shift responsibility to the woman and her clothes. The thing is, it’s pretty easy to check out a woman even if her clothes aren’t particularly revealing and don’t expose much. You can stare at her breasts even if she’s not exposing any cleavage. Revealing clothing might result in more stares, but there isn’t a one-to-one relationship here. And of course different guys prefer different body parts, so at a certain point you might realize this is unreasonable. > [@](#): > > And we’re right back where we started. What’s staring? How long is a quick look? I’m not sure this is back where we started. I was trying to illuminate some of the details of this issue; this reads more like a determined attempt at nitpicking. > [@](#): > > Who sets the standards and gets to decide what’s offensive? I addressed this already: people have the right to come to their own conclusions about their own experiences. You may be reasonably discrete about looking at a woman and she may not like it anyway. That doesn’t mean she’s unreasonable or that you’re a huge perv; it’s two different people with different ideas about an event. I hate to tell you this, but if you’re looking for some formula where no reasonable person can object to your behavior, you’re SOL. And we’re going to eliminate all disagreements. I do think it’s incumbent on people to be respectful and take responsibility for their own behavior precisely because there are gray areas here. If you’re checking someone out, don’t blame their clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/250 "2014-07-08T04:18:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I hate to tell you this, but both statements are stupid. And they both tend to shift responsibility to the woman and her clothes. The thing is, it’s pretty easy to check out a woman even if her clothes aren’t particularly revealing and don’t expose much. You can stare at her breasts even if she’s not exposing any cleavage. Revealing clothing might result in more stares, but there isn’t a one-to-one relationship here. And of course different guys prefer different body parts, so at a certain point you might realize this is unreasonable. Shifting responsibility for what? What I find unreasonable is the idea that an objectionable, or even shameful act has been committed simply by looking at someone–for however long that may be. At a certain point we all have to be responsible for our feelings, and IMHO within the given context the line is looking. You can call it shifting responsibility to women if it makes you feel better; to me it seems to place the burden of responsibility for their feelings precisely where it belongs. I feel the same when guys express anger over getting checked out by other guys. Meh, they’re just enjoying the view. > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure this is back where we started. I was trying to illuminate some of the details of this issue; this reads more like a determined attempt at nitpicking. If you go back and reread the first post of mine you responded to you’ll find that it’s precisely where we started. If you don’t have an answer or don’t think it has an answer, which seems to be what you’re saying, that’s fine. But don’t try to hand wave it away as nitpicking, because it seems to be a rather important point: If we can’t define what gawking is and how it differs from an innocent look, then I don’t know why we should take anyone’s objections to gawking seriously. In each case it would seem to be an attempt to make another person responsible for what’s really our own insecurity, shame, hang-ups, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/251 "2014-07-08T16:15:28Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > What I find unreasonable is the idea that an objectionable, or even shameful act has been committed simply by looking at someone–for however long that may be. I’m not sure I would go as far as “shameful,” but yes, staring at people tends to make them uncomfortable. That’s a secret to precisely nobody. All kinds of minor social interactions can make people feel good or bad. This is ingrained in us so deeply that the failure to pick up on those social cues is considered a type of disorder. If you [the general you] take the view that that stuff doesn’t matter and you shouldn’t have to pay attention to it, you’re being a jerk. > [@](#): > > At a certain point we all have to be responsible for our feelings Yes, we do. And determining that point is complicated. > [@](#): > > You can call it shifting responsibility to women if it makes you feel better I’m calling it that because that’s what it is. > [@](#): > > If we can’t define what gawking is and how it differs from an innocent look, then I don’t know why we should take anyone’s objections to gawking seriously. In each case it would seem to be an attempt to make another person responsible for what’s really our own insecurity, shame, hang-ups, whatever. And I mean, isn’t the woman really reflecting light _at you_? Shouldn’t she take responsibility for sending particles of light at _your_ eyeballs? … It shouldn’t be news to anyone that social interactions can be complex and subtle and the details can be hard to pin down. That doesn’t mean you can say “look, you’re the one with all the hangups- I’m gonna do what I want” without the result of people thinking you’re rude and inconsiderate. After all you are declaring your intent not to consider other people’s feelings. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/252 "2014-07-09T05:04:42Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > What I find unreasonable is the idea that an objectionable, or even shameful act has been committed simply by looking at someone–for however long that may be. What specifically do you find unreasonable? Do you not accept that staring is rude? Do you believe that staring at a person falls within normal, polite behavior? You say that it’s not objectionable to simply look at someone for however long it may be. So, a person can stare (look continually) for hours at a stranger and it would be acceptable for you? If so, I don’t believe we share enough values to have a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absinthe_Anecdote)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/253 "2014-07-09T14:02:56Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Shifting responsibility for what? _ **What I find unreasonable is the idea that an objectionable, or even shameful act has been committed simply by looking at someone–for however long that may be.** _ At a certain point we all have to be responsible for our feelings, and IMHO within the given context the line is looking. You can call it shifting responsibility to women if it makes you feel better; to me it seems to place the burden of responsibility for their feelings precisely where it belongs. I feel the same when guys express anger over getting checked out by other guys. Meh, they’re just enjoying the view. > > If you go back and reread the first post of mine you responded to you’ll find that it’s precisely where we started. If you don’t have an answer or don’t think it has an answer, which seems to be what you’re saying, that’s fine. But don’t try to hand wave it away as nitpicking, because it seems to be a rather important point: If we can’t define what gawking is and how it differs from an innocent look, then I don’t know why we should take anyone’s objections to gawking seriously. In each case it would seem to be an attempt to make another person responsible for what’s really our own insecurity, shame, hang-ups, whatever. I had to go back and read all of your post to see if some counter-balance had been edited out, but apparently not. Are you forgetting about how powerful non-verbal communication can be? I am confident that I could make you uncomfortable, just by looking at you; especially, since you added, “for however long that maybe.” I’m pretty sure I could get you to experience anger, and possibly fear, if you gave me unrestricted staring time. Non-verbals are powerful, and staring seldom occurs without others cues being present. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/254 "2014-07-09T14:37:31Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > If so, I don’t believe we share enough values to have a conversation. I like this line. Will be using in the future. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/255 "2014-07-09T14:59:08Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Shifting responsibility for what? What I find unreasonable is the idea that an objectionable, or even shameful act has been committed simply by looking at someone–for however long that may be. At a certain point we all have to be responsible for our feelings, and IMHO within the given context the line is looking. You can call it shifting responsibility to women if it makes you feel better; to me it seems to place the burden of responsibility for their feelings precisely where it belongs. I feel the same when guys express anger over getting checked out by other guys. **Meh, they’re just enjoying the view.** If our caveman ancestors had had such a view, none of us would be alive today. Being able to recognize and respond appropriately to a threatening person well before an attack is a basic survival skill, and anyone who would shrug off an encounter with a leering stranger under some Pollyanna belief like the one in bold is showing that they lack such survival skills. They are essentially the same kind of idiot that will play patty cake with a venomous snake. It doesn’t happen very often that I notice when people are staring at me (friends usually have to point it out to me when it happens because I tend to be oblivious to my surroundings), but when I do, it can be unnerving the same way unnerving when a crazy person gets on the train and starts raving and ranting at ghosts. People that deviate from socially accepted behavior usually are unpredictable and often have no problem with violating other people’s boundaries. At best, this means they are a nuisance. At worst, a danger. With all this talk about taking responsibility for one’s feelings, it puzzles me why you would let yourself be bothered by what others considered offensive. If a woman gets angry at you because you’ve pinged her perv meter, what’s it to you? By your logic, this reaction should just roll off your back like gravy. ---
**Author:** ![CheshireKat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheshirekat/32/1207_2.png) [@CheshireKat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheshireKat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/256 "2014-07-09T17:26:48Z")
The latest in the “How low can we go” series of reality shows seems apropos here, as the debate over whether clothing is too revealing or not becomes moot: NSFW[Dating Naked](http://www.vh1.com/shows/dating-naked/extended-preview-dating-naked/1060120/video/#id=1728976) Notice the first couple to be shown naked, where the guy is staring creepily and purposefully into her eyes, saying he’s not going to look down for 20 minutes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/257 "2014-07-09T21:44:04Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Great! We’ll just all wear burqas then. Man, talk about mean… 😃 It’s a vicious circle. I catch myself looking and make myself look away and then get caught looking and get angry glares and stare AWAY pointedly, only to have my eyes fall upon someone else close by. Swear to Og, I need to stay off of Fire Island… ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/258 "2014-07-10T14:33:25Z")
If I close one eye, can I stare/gawk/look for twice the acceptable length of time? (tho that might appear I’m winking at the subject, which could open up a different can of worms) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/259 "2014-07-10T15:48:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As is often true in real life, the free market doesn’t always work like it is supposed to in theory… > > 1. Some women might want to keep buying something that suited them in the past rather than moving entirely with whatever trend the industry has produced next. AMEN, for men as well. Tried buying men’s shorts that end above the knee lately? Geez, just wear trousers. > [@Krouget](#): > > As to what “skimpy” is, that varies by whoever you’re talking to, but it’s pretty easy to detect and gauge what makes a person uncomfortable. Staring at a person in most parts of the US, is generally understood to be uncouth. Quoted because apparently it was missed before. > [@](#): > > More simply, just don’t feel entitled, and you’re usually good. “But the titties are there for _me_!” > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > A lot of of people keep harping about this, which seems a bit odd because no one seems to actually be advocating or defending outright staring or lewdness. I think there’s some vagueness to the original statements. > [@Crawlspace](#): > > What is gawking? Or leering? Or ogling? There doesn’t seem to have been any attempt to define these terms. Let’s see if we can put some context to the words. “Observing” means you notice. “Glancing” is a momentary observation and then shifting eyes away. “Staring” means you keep looking for some undefined length of time but is generally fairly socially understood. “Gawking”, “ogling”, and “leering” bring the reaction of the observer into the equation, including facial gestures, or changing body position to get a better look, etc. > [@](#): > > Surely the crux of the issue here is the perceived, and perhaps very real, discrepancy between what would normally constitute staring, and what’s considered ogling of cleavage. A Google search of “caught ogling” would suggest that even an absent minded glance can be considered ogling by some. Cameras are deceptive because they capture that momentary glance and freeze it for all to see, draw it out into the stare of a lifetime. > [@Incubus](#): > > People need to be mindful of walking that fine line between staring and leering. I would say step back, the line of concern should be between a momentary glance and staring. Leering is right out. > [@Crawlspace](#): > > Sure. But can you appreciate the difference between saying, “[she] ought to know what she’s in for and shouldn’t complain” and “if the thought of someone looking at your cleavage makes you particularly uncomfortable, then perhaps you shouldn’t bare your cleavage.” The latter, which is what I’m saying, is that any heightened sensitivity a woman feels when her cleavage is visible, any narrowing in her tolerances of what she considers “ogling” when it comes to her cleavage is not the responsibility of anyone but herself. Certainly if a woman has a self-consciousness about her body, her own sense of modesty involved, she should be aware of that and respond accordingly. But at the same time, her clothing choices shouldn’t be considered free rein for men to stare, or make comments, or shift around to get a better look, or move closer, or otherwise draw attention to that observation. > [@](#): > > Is there ever a point at which the offense taking can be blown off as an over-reaction? I think if someone takes offense at a momentary glance, I would still feel a bit bad about making them uncomfortable. > [@](#): > > In a perfect world women would have other alternatives to tops that reveal cleavage; articles of clothing like [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+crew+neck+shirt&client=firefox-a&hs=zjv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Zr-5U7ztFYeCqga2rYKgBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699) and [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+turtleneck&client=firefox-a&hs=I6a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=yr-5U4vMEZGfqAbW5oDoDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1056&bih=699) and many of [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+golf+shirt&client=firefox-a&hs=Jkv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=er-5U-SFGNODqgbx3IKoBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699#channel=sb&q=women%27s+collared+shirt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch) and [these](https://www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+jewel+neck&client=firefox-a&hs=ikv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k7-5U8f3MdSYqAbRqIKgDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1056&bih=699), but sadly they are from a bygone era. I scrolled down on each of those pages, and I didn’t notice a single woman with a cup size over size D, possibly even a C. As has been mentioned before in this thread, women with larger breasts can wear the same cut of an outfit and it will still be more revealing. Even full coverage can still scream “boobs”. Case in point, I was watching “Heroes of Cosplay”, and one of the stars is Riki. She has fairly large breasts, and isn’t afraid to use them in her cosplay. But one outfit stuck out to me, and it wasn’t showing any cleavage. She was being interviewed for those observational/reflection segments on reality competition shows, and she was wearing a red outfit that fully covered her chest. But something about the outfit just screamed “my, that sure is a lot of material”. Unfortunately an image search isn’t uncovering that image, but here is [one costume](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vnJW86Y0-mA/UnbqMFa565I/AAAAAAABgPs/SRQDlQIro9I/s1600/1000453_578911955491290_1401113921_n.jpg)that doesn’t show any cleavage and yet somehow still conveys big boobs. Or check out this [Rocketeer outfit](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z6CHN5ph6pM/UnbqdrwAm4I/AAAAAAABgQU/CWH1UINFm3U/s1600/1383439_578911985491287_1193863942_n.jpg). The coat comes up to her neck, but it still screams boobs. Here, try the 26 second mark at this [video](http://www.syfy.com/videos/Heroes%20of%20Cosplay/vid:2785856). ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/260 "2014-07-10T16:35:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > AMEN, for men as well. Tried buying men’s shorts that end above the knee lately? Geez, just wear trousers [https://www.jcrew.com/mens\_category/shortsswim.jsp](https://www.jcrew.com/mens_category/shortsswim.jsp) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=14)