# Women and cleavage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892 "2014-06-28T22:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/81 "2014-06-29T21:12:17Z")
People ogle men’s plumber’s cracks? Seriously? Man, there really is a kink for everything. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/82 "2014-06-29T21:15:20Z")
Everybody stares. Even princes and princesses. This was in the news a year or so ago. That dude got so busted. [![](http://stupidest.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/banquet-ogling.jpg) ](http://stupidest.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/banquet-ogling.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/83 "2014-06-29T21:17:18Z")
But like **CrazyCatLady** explained above, and others have also mentioned in this and other threads, sometimes cleavage is formed when cleavage was not intended during the day. Similar to plumber’s crack (at least, I really hope so), in which it’s not expected. And the point is that the initial right thing to do is to not stare or treat the person in such a way as I described in the first place, that is the right thing to do. Else the reply from them IS justified. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/84 "2014-06-29T21:25:20Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Well, do you really want to go down the “they’re asking for it” road? Even if it’s just a small step? Really? “She’s asking for it” is about rape. No one is going even slightly down that road. No one wants to be raped. But quite a few women wear sexually provocative clothing specifically because they want people to look at them. In fact, that’s what makes the OP so freakin’ stupid. Having someone look at you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable is nowhere near rape. You’re the one bringing it down that road, and not anyone else. Once you connect leering with rape, there’s no point in having a discussion anymore. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/85 "2014-06-29T21:51:04Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In other words, you want your actions to be free of consequences that you don’t like. Sorry, but that’s not how the world works. You don’t get by to pick and choose the consequences of your actions. > > Anything that is put on public display is fair game to be commented on. If it’s appropriate to show cleavage in the first place, then it’s appropriate for men to mention said cleavage. You can’t have it both ways. > > **There is an astonishing number of women who are hypocrites–they think that they should be able to show all kinds of leg and cleavage in public, but not have any reaction from men**. Hm. Fascinating. I think you replied to and quoted the wrong person. Because you ended your post with this truly incisive riposte: > [@](#): > > {women} think that they should be able to show all kinds of leg and cleavage in public, but not have any reaction from men. and yet I said nothing of the sort. Instead of thinking “{I} should… not have any reaction from men”, I \* actually\* said: > [@](#): > > There is a difference between _appreciating \* and staring._\*\* I am not bothered by a guy who glances (even slightly lingering) or even does a quick double-take walking by.\*\*\* I AM bothered by staring, movements specifically to keep my chest in your line of sight longer, blatant evaluation (elevator eyes, ugh) or saying anything.\* (emphasis mine) So really, the only way your reply actually addresses me is if you, for some odd reason, think that reactions exist in a binary state: Either there is no reaction at all or there is a single (apparently severe/extreme) reaction. And that’s clearly absurd, since anyone with even the slightest awareness of human interaction knows that there are countless possible reactions to any event. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/86 "2014-06-29T21:57:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > “She’s asking for it” is about rape. No one is going even slightly down that road. No one wants to be raped. But quite a few women wear sexually provocative clothing specifically because they want people to look at them. In fact, that’s what makes the OP so freakin’ stupid. > > Having someone look at you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable is nowhere near rape. You’re the one bringing it down that road, and not anyone else. Once you connect leering with rape, there’s no point in having a discussion anymore. You may have decided that “she’s asking for it” applies only to rape but this is not, in fact, how women (#yesallwomen!) experience the world. She’s asking for lewd comments, she’s asking for wolf whistles, she’s asking for trouble, she’s asking for my undivided albeit undesired attention because she’s at a frickin’ bar, etc. But hey if she’s out in public it’s anyone’s game. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/87 "2014-06-29T22:31:44Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Are [the following] advertising their assets? Be it to women or, let’s also be equal, to the gay men? Should then they be perfectly OK with gay men ogling at them, looking at them with elevator eyes, whistling at them, and telling them unsavory comments? They should, since, after all, they’re showing the equivalent of women showing cleavage. I know it’s probably pointless to try and have this conversation, but since I’ve already started, I’ll guess I’ll go ahead and finish up. Maybe, just maybe the fact that I’ve been so pro-feminism in practically every other post I’ve made on the subject will be relevant. > [@](#): > > - The teenage boys with their pants low showing their underwear, Yes, they are advertising their assets. Yes they should be okay with men ogling them, since they are almost certainly okay with women doing the same. Otherwise they are homophobic. Elevator eyes the same. Whistling is getting to be a bit much, and unsavory comments are usually wrong except in very specific situations. > [@](#): > > - The men with the plumber’s crack, however they got it, No, because this is accidental. Yes, they should be okay with ogling/elevator eyes. Whistling would be an obnoxious joke, and unsavory comments are still unsavory. > [@](#): > > - The men who are wearing shorts and finely chiseled ankles and legs, Depends on the length of the shorts. Both are possible. Yes for ogling/elevator eyes. No for the other two. > [@](#): > > - The men wearing tailored suits that show off a beautifully shaped butt, I’m not sure. I guess both are possible again. Yes/Yes, No/No. And just assume the same answers from now on. > [@](#): > > - The men who for some reason are wearing tight pants that demonstrate some bulge, Yes, definitely showing off. There’s little other reason to wear pants tight enough for that purpose. They don’t feel good. > [@](#): > > - The athletic men who are shirtless either because it is too hot or their shirt got dirty, With your caveats, probably not. Still no problem with the appropriate reactions. > [@](#): > > Or would you be disgusted if that happened? Or are only women who should be policed when it comes to what they wear, since their body apparently is not of them but public property or private property that is always on sale to the highest bidder, while men are excempt of that? Only the unsavory comments would be disgusting, just by definition (except in the right circumstances–but the same goes for women.) Whistling would be rude. Bedroom eyes and ogling are not objectionable for most men. No one is being policed in what they can wear, just in how they react. Women are not property of any kind, and men are not exempt. A guy who went shirtless all the time but complained that women kept staring would be laughed at. That’s the entire point. A large number of guys really don’t get the problem. Someone staring at me, except directly in the eyes, doesn’t bother me. I know it’s socially unacceptable, and I avoid it to avoid causing offense, but that doesn’t mean I get it, any more than I get why some women freak out when they find out their male friend finds them attractive. All that sort of stuff is flattering to me. Still, just because we call some behavior irrational doesn’t mean we hate women. Just because we don’t get it doesn’t make us misogynists or sluts who can’t keep it in our pants. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/88 "2014-06-29T22:43:46Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > You may have decided that “she’s asking for it” applies only to rape but this is not, in fact, how women (#yesallwomen!) experience the world. She’s asking for lewd comments, she’s asking for wolf whistles, she’s asking for trouble, she’s asking for my undivided albeit undesired attention because she’s at a frickin’ bar, etc. > > But hey if she’s out in public it’s anyone’s game. Thank you. And, by the way, I’ve had men leer at me while wearing a shirt showing no cleavage. I’ve been leered at in an oversized sweatshirt. I’ve had people make inappropriate comments while wearing an ordinary t-shirt - nothing tight or scoop necked. Or when I’m wearing a long skirt and long sleeved shirt and look more like a fundamentalist Christian than anything - and those at work. What do I have to do to not be “asking for it?” It being anything from being leered at, to comments being made on my physical attributes, to being propositioned, to being touched or groped (I was never big on going to bars - because the trip from the table to the ladies room is a groping minefield), to being raped. Stay in my home? Not hold a job? Never go out in public? Its not my choice in clothes men leer at - its ME. Short of aging (which I have, thank god, done so this nearly as much of an issue anymore) or gaining enough weight that I’m less of a target for sexual comments (although even then they certainly don’t go away if talking to my friends is any indication - and that opens up a host of other unwelcome comments and actions from strangers), I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do. And yes, I know, not all men. I’m married to one. Many men of my acquaintance are gentlemen. Others I know well enough for enough years that certain types of comments are not impertinent where if they came from a stranger or acquaintance, they’d be very inappropriate. In a given day when I was younger, I could meet 50 men on the street, at work, on the bus - and 49 would behave appropriately. And one asshole would need to ask me if I liked to suck dick, or stare at my chest or my ass so intensely that I felt I was in a cartoon. But guys, if you want us to take “not all men” seriously, you need to do a better job of calling out shit like in the OP and several of the subsequent posts. We don’t need you to rise to our defense, but its nice to see evidence some of you grasp it after so many of these threads. Right now we have “a handful of men get it” “a handful of guys are complete assholes” and the vast majority wave us off with a pat on the head and some form of tut tut, it can’t possibly be that bad - no one is raping you (or an indignant - not MEEEEE!) ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/89 "2014-06-30T00:04:20Z")
My unscientific study on the matter revealed (sorry for the pun) this: If you are walking towards a woman and you stare at her cleavage she will try to look you in the eye. If you look her in the eye she will look down at her cleavage (as if, what’s the matter?). ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/90 "2014-06-30T00:08:40Z")
Or perhaps, some women just don’t like to make eye contact and look _down_, not at their boobs. Sheesh. I don’t ever show off my cleavage intentionally because I’m very self-conscious about it, but I do know that after making brief eye contact and offering a faint smile, I quit looking at someone and instead gaze at where I’m walking. Crazy concept, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/91 "2014-06-30T00:35:06Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There is an astonishing number of women who are hypocrites–they think that they should be able to show all kinds of leg and cleavage in public, but not have any reaction from men. If I can look at cleavage & see leg, I’m absolutely going to keep staring, 'cause that’s just impressive! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PurpleClogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@PurpleClogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PurpleClogs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/92 "2014-06-30T01:46:20Z")
I have noticed some women who get implants are then so fixated on what they’ve lived for so long without, and now so proud, they want to show them off intentionally. I remember a neighbor of ours lifting her shirt to show them off at a backyard cookout! Ok yes you have perfect rock hard tits now and don’t have to wear a bra. Whatever. It’s just a pathetically low self esteem person fishing for attention the only way she knows how. But one of my childhood friends had perfect boobs at an unusually young age and had to suffer so much unwanted attention and because of it she was genuinely miserable. Still is. She’s had relationship issues her whole life because she still feels men just like her for her boobs. Unfortunately, sometimes I think she was right. They are pretty spectacular even over 40. Point is, not everyone wants the attention. And good boyfriend material won’t be caught looking. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/93 "2014-06-30T02:34:24Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Why do some women, women who I know well enough to believe that they are not interested in being flirty or flirted with, wear outfits with nnn-minor cleavage in a business environment? Yes, my rule is I don’t want to see cleavage or chest hair on the job. Or both at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/94 "2014-06-30T03:43:05Z")
> [@occupant](#): > > women and cleavage I’ll take some. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think women don’t mind men checking out their cleavage when they wear something that calls attention to that area. They just don’t like it when men act like fools, either by being unable to look at anything else, by making comments, or by assuming that an invitation has been made. Bingo. Observing is one thing, but don’t come off like a creep. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > On the other hand, I did on one occasion have a woman walk up to me in a bar, pull her top down, and shove her cleavage in my face. Of course, one can never be 100% certain about these things, but I feel fairly confident in saying that she actually wanted me to look. Just maybe that was a sign. > [@](#): > > (I also didn’t look. Cleavage can actually be scary when it comes at you aggressively at 20 miles per hour.) You can put an eye out. I’ve been there. Sometimes strippers will smack you in the face with your boobs. They always seem to aim for the eyes. It’s a flinch reflex. > [@Zeldar](#): > > In high school we called that “flobbing” and any girl with more than inverted navels got flobbed – often. Inverted _navels_? Did you just get autocorrect-slammed? > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Why do some women, women who I know well enough to believe that they are not interested in being flirty or flirted with, wear outfits with nnn-minor cleavage in a business environment? > > … The whole situation made me uncomfortable, Sometimes that’s the point - it’s a power grab. > [@](#): > > but I guess men can’t complain about women’s provocative clothing. Sure you can. Check out > [@zweisamkeit](#): > > - For bustier women, \* many\* shirts will be more revealing than they were intended to be. Misses clothing still is cut with a B cup as the standard, even though the average breast size in the USA is 34DD (and trying to discount that by talking about how fat Americans have gotten completely misses the point - it’s still a _fact_ that most women have breasts significantly larger than our clothing is cut for). This. A blouse that looks perfectly demure on a small-breasted woman will look ultra revealing on a large breasted woman. A V-neck cut to anywhere below the collar bones will be showing cleavage on a D or larger. > [@](#): > > - (A bit of a tangent away from cleavage specifically, but still about “appropriate” clothing: Often the “problem” is literally _having_ larger breasts. The fact you have two lumps protruding means some people will find your clothing inappropriate/unprofessional, even if there is no hint of cleavage). Yes. Just having breasts can be cause for catching eyes. > [@Flyer](#): > > In other words, you want your actions to be free of consequences that you don’t like. Sorry, but that’s not how the world works. You don’t get to pick and choose the consequences of your actions. > > Anything that is put on public display is fair game to be commented on. If it’s appropriate to show cleavage in the first place, then it’s appropriate for men to mention said cleavage. You can’t have it both ways. So what level of comment begins to cross the line from fair response to creepy aggressive threatening rudeness? - “Nice breasts.” - “Headlights.” - “Schwing!” - “Damn, I wish my girlfriend looked like you.” - “Can I help you, maybe carry those large items for you?” - “I’d like to motorboat those.” - “It’s booby time!” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/95 "2014-06-30T03:59:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So what level of comment begins to cross the line from fair response to creepy aggressive threatening rudeness? [This probably crosses the line.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP2PlE41wpE) ---
**Author:** ![Lonnie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lonnie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lonnie)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/96 "2014-06-30T04:05:54Z")
OMG. If men just realized that the female breast is made mostly of fat (adipose tissue) and the amount of fat determines the size of the breast. There are also glands and ducts to produce and carry milk for offspring. So whaddya think, ladies? Does male preoccupation with breasts relate back to Mommy? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/97 "2014-06-30T04:08:25Z")
> [@Lonnie](#): > > OMG. If men just realized that the female breast is made mostly of fat (adipose tissue) and the amount of fat determines the size of the breast. > > There are also glands and ducts to produce and carry milk for offspring. So whaddya think, ladies? Does male preoccupation with breasts relate back to Mommy? Well, other primates have flat breasts. The evolutionary reason for human women to have swollen breasts is exactly because it attracts male attention. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/98 "2014-06-30T04:26:23Z")
That “just check out” in my previous post: I was going to look up a thread I recall about one poster’s repeated interactions with a young employee not getting the message. But I can’t remember which poster or enough information to find the thread, and I hit submit before going back and deleting that line. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/99 "2014-06-30T04:30:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He’d probably be delighted. Which, as has been pointed out before, just points to one way in which the Golden Rule fails. Men and women are different, and what’s welcome behavior from (most) women to (most) men, is not going to be welcome the other way around. It’s a whole other topic so I won’t go into detail, but you are doing the Golden Rule wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/100 "2014-06-30T04:49:31Z")
All things are spiritual … there is a spirit of “hey look at me” “when I bend over and I’ll show you something”, spiritual thought that some women send out. The man has spirit that senses or senses wrong that it is okay to look down her blouse or dress or hope for a wardrobe malfunction. The reaction in the woman is positive or negative which also parlay’s into a women wearing strippers panties and bending over to receive the same reaction which can only be negative or positive, exceptions are with dumb blondes they might not really even know they are doing something exciting to the male libido. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=6)