# Women and cleavage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892 "2014-06-28T22:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/101 "2014-06-30T09:03:02Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > …exceptions are with dumb blondes they might not really even know they are doing something exciting to the male libido. I’m curious, do you men in general walk around or act around thinking in such detailed way as to how your actions would be perceived by women? Not major actions, but mundane actions that don’t even deal with interacting with women, like bending over, walking around, how to eat, what to wear for office, etc.? Because the implication from this and other threads and quotes is that women SHOULD be paying attention to how we behave, lest we destroy or affect the men in someway, even in situations where we’re not dealing with them directly. Women have to mind the men’s feelings in such a way that it doesn’t seem men have to do. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/102 "2014-06-30T09:10:51Z")
A few days ago there was a thread that asked why misogyny was on the increase on the Dope and a lot of posters said they hadn’t noticed any misogyny, yet in this one thread we have casual reference to sexual assault, the argument that women are asking for it when they dress a certain way, and a reference to dumb blondes. It’s so common that posters don’t even see it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/103 "2014-06-30T11:26:08Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So what level of comment begins to cross the line from fair response to creepy aggressive threatening rudeness? IF we’d had learned manners - we’d have learned any comment on someone’s appearance that you don’t know well that goes beyond the “cute shoes” level is rude. And in the cute shoes level of comment, you never comment on anything covering breasts or butts if there is any chance it comes off as creepy or catty. The other day I saw a guy with a huge port wine stain across his face. It really isn’t necessary for me to say “whoa!, you have a huge birthmark!” I bet by now he knows. However, he hasn’t had it removed and it wasn’t covered with makeup, so maybe I was supposed to comment? I saw a family last week - I assume mom and three little identically dressed girls between the ages of about seven and three - two dark chocolate brown girls and one nearly as light skinned as I am - no need for me to ask “does that one have a different Dad?” - but maybe she dressed them identically so little old me would know they were sisters and not just a friend along and ask stupid and impertinent questions. Once in a while I’ll go out to dinner in the Twin Cities and also eating there will be Garrison Keillor or some other Twin Cities celebrity (its the Twin Cities, celebrity sightings aren’t too exciting here), I figure the guy wants to eat his dinner without an audience and to be noticed as little as possible, but he’s famous and out in public - he wouldn’t be famous and out in public if he did want the entire restaurant to come ask for an autograph and a selfie, right? Its not polite for me to stare or gawk. I observed, and then I moved my gaze along quickly. It is certainly not necessary for me to comment. And I don’t need to twist the everyday actions of others in going out in public or dressing their daughters in identical outfits into excuses for me to be rude. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/104 "2014-06-30T11:51:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > but since I’ve already started, I’ll guess I’ll go ahead and finish up. Dude, TMI!! ---
**Author:** ![CheshireKat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheshirekat/32/1207_2.png) [@CheshireKat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheshireKat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/105 "2014-06-30T12:57:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The reaction in the woman is positive or negative which also parlay’s into a women wearing strippers panties and bending over to receive the same reaction which can only be negative or positive, exceptions are with \*\*dumb blondes \*\*they might not really even know they are doing something exciting to the male libido. Dumb blondes, eh? Is this **your** version of the Golden Rule? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lonnie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lonnie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lonnie)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/106 "2014-06-30T13:22:21Z")
Polite behavior is always appreciated in every situation. Oogling, whistling, and comments are not polite, no matter what is showing. Men who do that need to grow up. Trying to touch is sexual assault, and not a joke. I always told my husband he could look but no handling the merchandise. But I didn’t need to say anything because he was always discreet in his mature healthy male behavior of looking. He never felt the need for porn either. And don’t kid yourselves. Women look at men too. In my experience we don’t just think about the external reproductive attributes. A female in all animal species will always be the one who decides whether or not the male gets any. (Short of rape.) Subconsciously with many factors being considered, females of child bearing age are deciding if the male’s genes meet her standards for her offspring. And immature male behavior does not usually cut it with mature females. And at my age, I just appreciate all human beauty. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/107 "2014-06-30T13:55:37Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > IF we’d had learned manners - we’d have learned any comment on someone’s appearance that you don’t know well that goes beyond the “cute shoes” level is rude. And in the cute shoes level of comment, you never comment on anything covering breasts or butts if there is any chance it comes off as creepy or catty. Exactly. As a rule you don’t comment on people’s bodies, particularly strangers, people at work, or anyone else who hasn’t made it clear that that would be welcomed. That doesn’t mean you don’t look. Human breasts—the part that bulges out noticeably from the chest—have “being looked at” as their sole evolutionary reason for being. Of course one does so with as much tact and subtlety as one can muster. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/108 "2014-06-30T14:01:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > A few days ago there was a thread that asked why misogyny was on the increase on the Dope and a lot of posters said they hadn’t noticed any misogyny, yet in this one thread we have casual reference to sexual assault, the argument that women are asking for it when they dress a certain way, and a reference to dumb blondes. It’s so common that posters don’t even see it. So much this. It’s so ingrained, the people that perpetuate it don’t even understand what the rest of us are talking about it. Like **Flyer’s** post, they truly believe (probably in all instances) that how someone lived their lives is in turn responsible for _their_ behavior. It’s disturbing. I’m always responsible for me, I don’t care what anyone else does or doesn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/109 "2014-06-30T14:11:27Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But guys, if you want us to take “not all men” seriously, you need to do a better job of calling out shit like in the OP and several of the subsequent posts. We don’t need you to rise to our defense, but its nice to see evidence some of you grasp it after so many of these threads. Right now we have “a handful of men get it” “a handful of guys are complete assholes” and the vast majority wave us off with a pat on the head and some form of tut tut, it can’t possibly be that bad - no one is raping you (or an indignant - not MEEEEE!) Fair enough. Threads like this are downright embarrassing for this guy, to see how many other guys are so smugly obnoxious in their attitudes toward women. I don’t know anything I can say will be effective, except to tell them, not you, that not all men are along for their ride. There’s a middle ground between pure-as-the-driven-snow no-looking approach, and openly leering and commenting, and a guy who hasn’t figured out that middle ground is a lousy person. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/110 "2014-06-30T14:11:54Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > All things are spiritual … there is a spirit of “hey look at me” “when I bend over and I’ll show you something”, spiritual thought that some women send out. > > The man has spirit that senses or senses wrong that it is okay to look down her blouse or dress or hope for a wardrobe malfunction. Get real. Please take some responsibility for your own behavior - that goes for the OP, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/111 "2014-06-30T15:21:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough. Threads like this are downright embarrassing for this guy, to see how many other guys are so smugly obnoxious in their attitudes toward women. I don’t know anything I can say will be effective, except to tell them, not you, that not all men are along for their ride. There’s a middle ground between pure-as-the-driven-snow no-looking approach, and openly leering and commenting, and a guy who hasn’t figured out that middle ground is a lousy person. Thanks…and there are a few guys out there that do say “wait…please don’t make us all look like cavemen” (Marley came right after you, there are a few others and have been in the past…and with user names there isn’t necessarily a gender marker, so it possible there are more, but frankly, it would be nice if there were more and they were louder). And I think the women demand the pure as the driven snow no looking approach is a strawman. But as Ascenray said: > [@](#): > > Of course one does so with as much tact and subtlety as one can muster. And if you can’t muster much tact and subtlety - work on it - don’t excuse it. That we can overcome our animalistic tendencies makes us human. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/112 "2014-06-30T15:51:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And if you can’t muster much tact and subtlety - work on it - don’t excuse it. That we can overcome our animalistic tendencies makes us human. This makes no sense to me. By definition, everything human is animalistic. It also implies that other animals don’t have societal standards of behavior. They do. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/113 "2014-06-30T16:06:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This makes no sense to me. By definition, everything human is animalistic. It also implies that other animals don’t have societal standards of behavior. They do. Well if we had to explain it, you still wouldn’t get it. I get your points, but do you think you can try to hers? Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/114 "2014-06-30T16:30:00Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well if we had to explain it, you still wouldn’t get it. I get your points, but do you think you can try to hers? Apparently not. I already stated my position as to acceptable behavior, one which she apparently agrees with. My quibble is with the attempted contrast with animals. I reject the premise. 1. We are animals and 2. Animals have behavioral norms, humans and non-humans included. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/115 "2014-06-30T16:30:28Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well if we had to explain it, you still wouldn’t get it. I get your points, but do you think you can try to hers? Apparently not. How dare you refer to **Dangerosa** ’s points?! “she had points all her own, sitting way up high way up firm and high” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/116 "2014-06-30T16:39:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My quibble is with the attempted contrast with animals. I reject the premise. 1. We are animals and 2. Animals have behavioral norms, humans and non-humans included. “Animalistic” doesn’t mean, literally, “like an animal.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/117 "2014-06-30T17:07:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Animalistic” doesn’t mean, literally, “like an animal.” The other meaning of “animalistic” has to do with sensualism, hedonism, or anti-spiritualism, none of which prevents you from refraining from making people uncomfortable by commenting on their bodily features. It’s a metaphor, sure, but it’s one based in misconception. That’s all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/118 "2014-06-30T17:09:03Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > And once my sister, then 18, appeared in front of me in a bikini; I must have blushed crimson. :o Did she have big titties? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/119 "2014-06-30T17:15:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The other meaning of “animalistic” has to do with sensualism, hedonism, or anti-spiritualism, none of which prevents you from refraining from making people uncomfortable by commenting on their bodily features. > > It’s a metaphor, sure, but it’s one based in misconception. That’s all I’m saying. It means brutish, driven by animal appetites. Lust is a part of the human condition, a pretty basic animalistic drive, along with hunger, anger, etc. It’s very clearly a cultural construct, not an instinct, that persuades men not to leer and treat women shittily. I think you’re splitting a nonexistent hair here. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892/120 "2014-06-30T18:25:28Z")
> [@PurpleClogs](#): > > I have noticed some women who get implants are then so fixated on what they’ve lived for so long without, and now so proud, they want to show them off intentionally. Who wants to look at fake boobs anyway? Seriously, if I know that they’re fake, I completely lose interest. It’s like flipping a switch in my brain. Flat-chested, I’m fine with. Implants, just no. It also tells me that the owner of said implants most likely have some bad self-esteem and body image issues, and picked the worst possible way to deal with them. I had a girlfriend for a short time once who later went on to get a boob job. Sure, she started out small-bosomed, but she was gorgeous. Then she had to and ruin it. I wanted to kick her butt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-cleavage/691892.md?page=7)