# Women and sexual assault. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563 "2010-05-15T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/201 "2010-05-17T22:05:42Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > I loathe the term “butthurt” and think it’s particularly inappropriate in a thread about sexual degradation. [snip] that word is simply uncalled for and disgusting in any context. There are a few different ways the word ‘butthurt’ can be taken. I choose the least offensive: imagine the way a child feels after being spanked. It isn’t offensive. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/202 "2010-05-17T22:32:13Z")
I’ve been with my boyfriend since I was very young, he’s quite a bit older than me and an unusually kind and sensitive person. And he is about 1000x more paranoid about the intentions of men than me. He seems to think the vast majority are animals, frankly, and doesn’t trust them to be alone with any woman he cares about, or any women at all. Because he has a sister, and has had many female friends, and many girlfriends over the years - and they have been consistantly hurt by men, too often men they should have been able to trust. Being with him has made me much more cautious. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s your choice to make. It’s also their choice to make to dislike and disrespect you for treating them like potential criminals when they’ve done nothing. Treat men like scum when they’ve done nothing, and they aren’t going to like you very much. I can’t believe you think women being frightened of you is them treating you ‘like scum’. Let’s be reasonable here. > [@](#): > > What a sad state of affairs that a thread for women to talk about being raped, molested and abused, has turned into this. Yes. I think it represents the whole issue quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/203 "2010-05-17T22:38:30Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > There’s no difference between a comment on the book someone’s carrying and a comment on the attractiveness of someone’s _legs_? Are you possibly joking? > > Um, I am not at all sure if I’m clear on what you’re saying, but if a strange man says to me “I like your hairstyle” or “your shawl is pretty”, I’m going to think that’s a little creepy because it doesn’t actually show any interest in me as a human. On the other hand, if you display interest in my book or in my stegosaurus t-shirt, maybe you’re thinking “also you have a great rack”, but you’re at least _acting_ like you have an interest that goes beyond the sexual. Maybe we have similar interests! You think the historical period I’m reading about is fascinating and you’ve visited the country where the event took place! You also think dinosaurs are awesome! You are probably a person I would like to talk to! > > But if your “sign of attraction” is based purely on the physical, no, I won’t be flattered and I will find you creepy. If someone sitting across from me on the train says to me “your eyes are beautiful,” what am I supposed to say to that? When this did happen, I said “thanks,” and went back to my reading. The guy continued to talk to me about how beautiful my eyes are and am I wearing contacts because they’re such an unusual color. That’s creepy behavior, it’s not a turn-on, and I’m not flattered. > > **FloatyGimpy** , it is a bit dispiriting, isn’t it? And we are all different. I’d probably think a guy commenting on my purse or shawl or haircut to be a little odd (you’d like as not go into the gay category), but a compliment to my taste in aesthetics is as valid to me as an interest in my book. In both cases you’d probably get a polite, but cold response - but I wouldn’t think you were creepy. I just don’t do a lot of small talk with strangers under normal circumstances. But you never really know. I’ve made plenty of chit chat with people on airplanes, sometimes waiting at the airport, and sometimes at conferences. Stranger complementing my looks - as in “nice legs” or “pretty eyes” or “beautiful smile” or “whatta rack!” - pretty much universally creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/204 "2010-05-17T22:59:55Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Um, I am not at all sure if I’m clear on what you’re saying, but if a strange man says to me “I like your hairstyle” or “your shawl is pretty” And how do you know that the woman making the same comment isn’t a bull dyke wanting to rape you with a strap-on? Think about it. > [@Kyla](#): > > The guy continued to talk to me about how beautiful my eyes are and am I wearing contacts because they’re such an unusual color. That’s creepy behavior, it’s not a turn-on, and I’m not flattered. As I said, that’s different. > [@](#): > > **FloatyGimpy** , it is a bit dispiriting, isn’t it? From this side as well. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/205 "2010-05-17T23:14:10Z")
Man speaking, voted as one at the bottom. Many years ago, out of sheer necessity, our best friend was working the graveyard shift as “front desk person” at a motel in a fairly seedy part of town. She’d only been at the job for a couple of weeks when two guys burst into the office late one night. Nylons over their heads, guns. While one guy ransacked the office and back room, the other one grabbed “Jane”, threw her to the floor, got on top of her (on his knees, straddling her), gun right in her face, started grabbing at her skirt. She knew she was about to be killed. At that moment the guy’s partner came back into the front, said “Let’s get out of here” (or whatever) in an urgent tone of voice. Jane’s assailant stopped for a moment, then delivered a vicious punch to her face, got off of her and left with his accomplice. Jane’s physical injuries were “only” a badly bruised left cheek and eye. Psychologically- obviously, she was very badly shaken, quit the job, took a self-defense course at the Police Dept; She’s a very capable, confident woman, and over the 20+ years since the attack, she never mentions it. I don’t know why I’m telling you this. Oh- I don’t know if this is germane to the poll, but Jane is attractive (face and figure) in a “normal” non-glamourous way. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/206 "2010-05-17T23:18:18Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > What a sad state of affairs that a thread for women to talk about being raped, molested and abused, has turned into this. They always do. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/207 "2010-05-17T23:21:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And how do you know that the woman making the same comment isn’t a bull dyke wanting to rape you with a strap-on? > > Think about it. Since 99% of rapists are men, it’s pretty unlikely. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/208 "2010-05-17T23:31:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And how do you know that the woman making the same comment isn’t a bull dyke wanting to rape you with a strap-on? > > Think about it. > > As I said, that’s different. > > From this side as well. Well maybe you should start your own thread about how oppressed and marginalized you are because when you approach a strange woman in a dark alley, she quickly walks away. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/209 "2010-05-17T23:36:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And how do you know that the woman making the same comment isn’t a bull dyke wanting to rape you with a strap-on? > > Think about it. The next time someone claims something amazing about the brainpower or class of the Dope, I’m going to quote this post. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/210 "2010-05-17T23:48:59Z")
Speaking of brainpower and stuff, I’m baffled about something. Some of us are some old ladies, grandmothers. We’ve seen the elephant and heard the hoot owl. Surely we’re considered wise to the ways of the world? I can see a person doubting a fresh green kid, but … do men really think the old experienced women are exaggerating about this stuff ? Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/211 "2010-05-18T00:08:56Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Speaking of brainpower and stuff, I’m baffled about something. > > Some of us are some old ladies, grandmothers. We’ve seen the elephant and heard the hoot owl. Surely we’re considered wise to the ways of the world? I can see a person doubting a fresh green kid, but … do men really think the old experienced women are exaggerating about this stuff ? Seriously. Exactly. I’m not some drama-loving 15 year old. I’ll be 40 in a few weeks and I find I’m feeling more and more angry at the dismissive attitudes. I actually can not count the number of times I’ve been molested, abused and assaulted. I have a right to be leery. Just today at the pool, I was in the sauna with about half a dozen people. One was a man who wasn’t one of the regulars and he kept staring at me. When I would look at him he wouldn’t even try to pretend to not be looking. Once a couple of people left I left as well. I certainly did not want to be alone in a dark sauna with a man who was making me uncomfortable even with lots of other people around. Some people here think that that is me somehow treating the guy like “scum” and being over paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/212 "2010-05-18T00:25:39Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Some of us are some old ladies, grandmothers. We’ve seen the elephant and heard the hoot owl. Surely we’re considered wise to the ways of the world? I can see a person doubting a fresh green kid, but … do men really think the old experienced women are exaggerating about this stuff ? Seriously. You know how it is. The _thirty-three_ women on this message board who have been raped by someone they thought they could trust are all outliers. It hardly ever happens! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/213 "2010-05-18T00:43:57Z")
It’s not so bad when people are extra cautious about being physically alone with me. It’s when they do so on behalf of a friend when they are not invited that screams “obsessive misandrist worrier” to me. It’s interesting that the other big complaint besides the physical safety aspect is the shame with which society supposedly views rape victims. The feeling of being ostracized for your gender is pretty powerful too. So don’t compare physical safety to “men’s widdle pwecious feelings”, compare it to the supposed social stigma of being a rape victim. And that’s not even the men who are actually accused by the law of rape. Between that and the automatic wariness, I’d say it hurts mens feelings just as much as womens to the extent that the feelings are caused by social views rather than actual violence. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/214 "2010-05-18T01:05:27Z")
“Stranger” and “man I thought I could trust” are not the only two options. You can be assaulted by a man you know and don’t particularly trust. I would like to think there are no grey areas with sexual assault, but in my experience, there are a lot of shades of grey. I don’t know if I’ve ever actually been sexually assaulted. One guy I had met earlier that night at a club and then he and his friends and me and my friends all went back to my house, and, well, if we’d been alone I’m pretty sure he would have raped me. As it was, you would not believe what he did to my neck (hickies). That may sound silly and not like a big deal, but you would have had to see it, and it HURT. I was telling him to stop and he wouldn’t. Eventually I started yelling for my friend, because I was getting really scared. Dude was crazy. The next day he left me a voicemail where he demanded that I call him, and called me a bitch. Hmm. Then there was a sex buddy of mine. One time I repeatedly told him to stop, and he wouldn’t. I guess that could be considered rape, and probably would be, but I don’t know, because rape can be a lot worse than that, and it didn’t really feel like rape to me, although it did piss me off and I never saw the guy again. Oh yeah, and then there have been a couple times I was, if not unconscious, at least VERY close to that. The guy was drunk too, but not THAT drunk, so where is the line drawn? I don’t know. So, I don’t know how to answer the poll. But I’ve definitely had some experiences that were wrong to some extent. And I think the same is true of just about any woman who has spent some time going to bars/clubs or hanging out with friends-of-friends, or whatever. I have nothing but respect for the men who would never even do anything that’s in a light grey area (that SHOULD be the norm but it’s not), but women have no shortage of reasons to assume the worst, and if that offends you, then take it up with your fellow men. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/215 "2010-05-18T01:17:33Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s not so bad when people are extra cautious about being physically alone with me. It’s when they do so on behalf of a friend when they are not invited that screams “obsessive misandrist worrier” to me. I’m not quite understanding “on behalf of a friend when they are not invited”. > [@](#): > > I’d say it hurts mens feelings just as much as womens to the extent that the feelings are caused by social views rather than actual violence. I don’t doubt that men’s feelings are hurt, and I do have some sympathy. But don’t blame the women who are reacting with caution/fear. Blame the men who made them that way. Be angry at them, not us. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/216 "2010-05-18T01:23:38Z")
**Quartz** , **Kyla** gave a wonderful response to your post and I back what she said 100% - but I do want to respond, myself, as well. > [@Quartz](#): > > Anything from the lewd and crude to the sublime; I phrased it quite deliberately. It means exactly what it says, no more and no less. Don’t overthink it; don’t try and read any subtext: there isn’t one. I’m trying to understand what you mean. I’m not trying to read a subtext or overthink anything, I’m just confused. Are _all_ of these types of statements supposed to be appropriate then? Or do they all deserve a polite response, even if they are obviously impolite and include obscene language? And what is a polite response? A smile and ‘thank you’? Is ‘please leave me alone’ impolite? I am not trying to mock you or ridicule your arguments, I think I’m just not getting something. > [@](#): > > Nor have you picked up that I deliberately made my comment genderless. I did pick that up, and I shouldn’t have said ‘he’ in my post because I can see that it gives a wrong impression of what I was trying to say. If an adult stranger approaches me with a comment on my physical appearance, it’s inappropriate and creepy. Regardless of gender. Period. I have absolutely experienced inappropriate comments from women and they made me feel very uncomfortable. > [@](#): > > And is it really rude? Do you not choose to ‘broadcast’ ( **your** word, not mine), say, your hair with a particular style? Or with a nice patterned shawl? Maybe you choose to broadcast your legs by wearing cut-offs? Or well-cut full-length trousers / pants? Or perhaps by walking with a bouncy, happy, gait? Or perhaps you simply happen to have a nice smile? Or maybe she loves your voice? Or perhaps it’s the book you’re carrying - or the tee-shirt you’re wearing - that causes them to take a closer look? Or… There’s no difference. > > Or perhaps you wear a burqa most of the time? (And for those following, yes, that’s a reductio ad absurdum.) > > Politeness, firm if necessary, costs nothing. > > Now if things progress, that’s a different matter. There is definitely a difference between wearing a shirt that specifically shows I am interested in a certain band or television show or movie and having “a nice smile”. One of those I choose because it represents my interests to the world. The other is something that is a physical quality about me that I could not change and do not choose. The important thing here is choice. Can I stress that any more? Also: I will only be polite if the other person is polite to me. Comments on my appearance - have I said this enough times? - are rude, they are impolite, that person - man OR woman - is being IMPOLITE and INAPPROPRIATE. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/217 "2010-05-18T01:26:04Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I’m not quite understanding “on behalf of a friend when they are not invited”. It’s certain more aggressive strains of the actions, if they were done by another man, would definitely be called “c\*\*\*blocking”, but when it’s done by another woman it’s sort of a grey area. Now, I have to admit, I’ve done this myself as a man – exactly once, but it was on the prompting of a group of several worried females. As I turned the corner of the alley, the woman the other girls were worried about walked around the corner, coming back right next to the questionable man looking completely unworried. So I came off looking like a paranoid jerk myself (and quite possibly a c\*\*\*blocker since I’m a guy), but on the other hand, a semi-deserted alley in the middle of the night _is_ questionable. > [@](#): > > I don’t doubt that men’s feelings are hurt, and I do have some sympathy. But don’t blame the women who are reacting with caution/fear. Blame the men who made them that way. Be angry at them, not us. Oh, it’s definitely a combination of both. But there aren’t many posters to the SDMB who support rape and harassment. I would say there are none, except that when you read certain posts from certain possible angles it can read like harassment. But they tend to not be very well received by this crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/218 "2010-05-18T02:02:26Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > And that’s not even the men who are actually accused by the law of rape. Between that and the automatic wariness, I’d say it hurts mens feelings just as much as womens to the extent that the feelings are caused by social views rather than actual violence. I’m sorry you feel this way. Genuinely. I think it is massively unfair to the vast majority of men, who would never, ever dream of forcing themselves onto a woman. But take a look at the poll results and consider what our options are? What should women do? Is it better for us to take no precautions, to not shy away from strangers? I doubt that any serious consideration of the problem will lead you to that result. If you think there’s a better way to handle this, I would sincerely like to hear it. It does not make me feel good to know that men have their feelings hurt, and if there’s a way for women to a. stay safe and b. not offend any men, I’d love to know what it is. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/219 "2010-05-18T02:03:25Z")
Ah, I see. Overzealous women friends trying to “protect” another woman. Thanks for the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/220 "2010-05-18T02:34:57Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Every time the issue of rape and sexual assault comes up in other threads, someone inevitably comes in and talks about how the whole thing ‘‘could have been prevented.’’ What’s the matter, why are you getting so defensive, ladies, all I’m saying is, there are precautions that can be taken! > > Now there are women discussing ways they take such precautions and there are people saying that taking such precautions is sexist and wrong. > > So which is it, **Der Trihs**? Should we trust men or not trust them? Should we feel safe dressing up and drinking at parties or not? Should we walk down the street alone or not? If you were ruler of the world, tell me, please, how you would you mandate women guard against rape without being offensive and ‘‘treating men like scum?’’ This this this THIS. If you don’t take precautions, well, you were stupid and it’s at least partly your fault you got raped or assaulted. If you do take precautions, you’re treating men like scum. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=12)