# Women and sexual assault. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563 "2010-05-15T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/441 "2010-06-01T17:53:55Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Fair enough. I’ll keep that in mind but you should remember that men use “bitch” to refer to one another, too. A lot. I’ve haven’t heard that, outside of gay men. But perhaps that’s not common in my circles. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/442 "2010-06-01T17:54:04Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/443 "2010-06-01T17:56:55Z")
Yeah, I’m sorry for implying you were stupid - but I’m have trouble believing that you really don’t get this. And you (unlike **Czarcasm** ) haven’t said you don’t like the analogy, you’ve shown you don’t understand that it was an analogy. And, yes, I know I said I was leaving. I unsubscribed at that point. I saw this thread in the forum list, though, and got sucked back in. I remember now why I unsubscribed. I am sorry for any offence I’ve caused - I’m in a crap mood at the moment and I should have known better than to post in any threads, let alone one like this. I’m off to try and remember how to be a more sociable, nicer person. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/444 "2010-06-01T18:09:45Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Fair enough. I’ll keep that in mind but you should remember that men use “bitch” to refer to one another, too. A lot. “Yo, what’s up, dog?” Yup, that’s not a common thing for men to say at all. No, sir. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/445 "2010-06-01T18:32:32Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > When **Czar** has a problem with the analogy, it’s fine but when I have a problem with it you call me a moron. I’m done with the thread. > > :rolleyes: I know you were replying to **nicole** , but I also have been vocal: no, it’s not okay when _anyone_ misses the freaking point. That includes **czarcasm**. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/446 "2010-06-01T23:18:07Z")
The ones defending the post are the ones missing the point. 1. The analogy makes no sense except as an insult. What does “charge up to you out of the blue and shove their nose in your crotch and slobber on your hands and jump on you with their muddy paws… they’re just (to their standards) being friendly” analogous to? What does “it’s a compliment when a dog climbs and licks and noses and humps your leg–it means he likes you!” mean? I have no idea what human actions these are supposed to stand for. I have no idea what bizarre kind of men you hang out with, or if you think this is an appropriate analogy for talking to you when you are reading. I have been annoyed by women talking to me when I am reading, but I don’t flip out and say they are climbing on me and shoving their nose in my crotch. The analogy is clearly not meant to clarify anything. The only effort involved was to make it as insulting as possible. 2. Yes, it was clearly dehumanizing all men. “Some of them are friendly, some of them are aggressive assholes, and some of them are just busy going about their doggy business and are pretty indifferent to you.” The “good men” are the dogs just going about their “doggy business.” Gee, thanks. 3. The excuse that someone else mentioned being afraid of dogs is pathetic. You can easily compare fear of dogs to fear of men WITHOUT offensively dehumanizing all men in the process. Something like “you are afraid of dogs even though most wouldn’t attack you, so can you see women being afraid of men even though most wouldn’t attack?” Instead, almost the entire post was dedicated to an irrelevant, hateful characterization of men as dogs. This characterization was entirely unnecessary and nonsensical except to be as insulting as possible. Actually it was counterproductive, because it suggests men just can’t help harassing women. 4. Of course calling all women bitches or dogs would be just as bad. “If it helps, think of all women as bitches. Some of them are aggressively bitchy, while others just go about their doggy business while leaving you alone. Sometimes they rush up and stuff their nose in your crotch when you are doing something important, but other times they go off with the other bitches and play their doggy games while the humans work.” If someone had posted such a… thing… seriously, they would rightfully be vilified. If they continued to defend it? Well, it would reveal a lot. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/447 "2010-06-02T01:10:02Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Like I said, I’m a tall muscular male and the closest comparison I have (to constant fear of assault) is trying to avoid being attacked by a dog when out for a walk. > [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > If it helps you get a feel for the issue, think of men as dogs. Some of them are friendly, some of them are aggressive assholes, and some of them are just busy going about their doggy business and are pretty indifferent to you. Most of them are pretty harmless, even the big stupid poorly trained ones who charge up to you out of the blue and shove their nose in your crotch and slobber on your hands and jump on you with their muddy paws. Those dogs have no intention of biting you or otherwise harming you in any way, they’re just (to their standards) being friendly. But to you, they’re being at best a huge steaming pain in the ass, and at worst a potential threat. Because it’s hard for you to tell which one is truly friendly but clueless, and which one is only waiting for you reach out and pat him to take you damn hand off. And if there’s more than one, they might pack up on you and your risk of injury skyrockets. I was thinking of some other ways the conversation might have happened. If it had gone down these ways would it have been less offensive? The whole point was to make it more understandable to Wesley since he mentioned (first!) a fear of dogs. CCL was trying to put it in terms he could understand. Maybe, Ariel will do a better job in my other world example. > [@King Triton](#): > > Like I said, I’m a tall muscular male with a trident and the closest comparison I have (to constant fear of assault) is trying to avoid being attacked by an octopus when out for a swim. > [@The Little Mermaid](#): > > If it helps you get a feel for the issue, think of men as octopi. Some of them are friendly, some of them are aggressive assholes, and some of them are just busy going about their tentacle business and are pretty indifferent to you. Most of them are pretty harmless, even the big stupid ones in a bad mood who swim up to you out of the blue and get their tentacles up in your face and don’t let you swim by. Those octopi have no intention of eating you or otherwise harming you in any way, they’re just (to their standards) being friendly. But to you, they’re being at best a huge steaming pain in the ass, and at worst a potential threat. Because it’s hard for you to tell which one is truly friendly but clueless, and which one is only waiting to cover your eyes with ink and going to town And if there’s more than one, they might pack up on you and your risk of injury is multiplied 8 times the number of octopi. Or here is another version, maybe this sweet version will avoid getting the dander up. > [@Mr. Anti Peanut](#): > > Like I said, I’m a tall muscular male with a peanut allergy and the closest comparison I have (to constant fear of assault) is trying to avoid eating a peanut M+M. > [@Candy Store Clerk](#): > > If it helps you get a feel for the issue, think of men as M+Ms. Some of them are friendly and plain, some of them are aggressive assholes filled with peanuts, and some of them are just busy going about their almond filled business and are pretty indifferent to you. Most of them are pretty harmless, even the big stupid ones that say they are plain, but somehow a peanut shard snuck in. Those M+Ms have no intention of killing you or otherwise harming you in any way, they’re just (to their standards) being friendly. But to you, they’re being at best a huge steaming pain in the ass, and at worst a potential threat. Because it’s hard for you to tell which one is truly friendly but nutless, and which one is only waiting to swell up your body and put you into anaphylactic shock. And if there’s more than one, they might pack up on you and your risk of injury skyrockets. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/448 "2010-06-02T01:12:45Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > The ones defending the post are the ones missing the point. > > 1. The analogy makes no sense except as an insult. Would people very much mind taking this particular discussion of victimhood to another thread? Another Forum might be nice too. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/449 "2010-06-02T03:43:27Z")
For fuck’s sake yourself, those who are defending the dog analogy post. Yeah, a simple analogy to fear of dogs was made. I get it. That was entirely appropriate in the context of the discussion. Then a quite detailed expansion of the same analogy was made. It was still an analogy… _I get it._ It was also incredibly tasteless, over the top, and gleefully calculated to make a whole class of human beings sound like mindless animals, even the innocent ones. I’m female, by the way, and if anything, _ **anything** _ of this nature had been made in reference to blacks or women, the outrage would be unstoppable, and the excuse of “Don’t you get it? It was just an analogy, and a perfectly appropriate one in context” just would not fucking cut it. It was crude and over the top and has offended some men, and me as well. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/450 "2010-06-02T03:57:41Z")
> [@drpepper](#): > > I’m female, by the way, and if anything, _ **anything** _ of this nature had been made in reference to blacks or women, the outrage would be unstoppable You did read “snakes with tits, the lot of them”, right? Where’s the “unstoppable outrage”? For that matter, where’s **your** outrage? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/451 "2010-06-02T05:17:01Z")
Ladies, I apologize for my fellow men who think that in a thread about rape, it’s ok to show indignation for a silly little dog analogy :rolleyes: Guys, it’s just an analogy to behavior. Get over it, sheesh. There are much more important things in this thread that deserve attention. Make a different thread to shit about some analogy you don’t like, k? ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/452 "2010-06-02T05:45:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Ladies, I apologize for my fellow men who think that in a thread about rape, it’s ok to show indignation for a silly little dog analogy :rolleyes: > > Guys, it’s just an analogy to behavior. Get over it, sheesh. There are much more important things in this thread that deserve attention. Make a different thread to shit about some analogy you don’t like, k? You’re right. I know I shouldn’t let it get to me but everything inside me is screaming “are you fucking kidding me???”. The people who have posted about their experiences (including me) aren’t just telling a story. We’re real people who have gone through horrible things. As a six year old, I had to wipe my dad’s ejaculate off of me. While he was having his way with me, I’d look at my panties which had been thrown into the corner. I had a set of panties with the day’s of the week on them and I’d try to see if I could read which ones were over on the floor each time. We had red and white checkered tea towels and that’s what I’d used to wipe myself off. To this day the smell of cum sickens me. Try to imagine the confusion of a little girl wiping her father’s cum off of her thighs. To tell my story and read about other women who have gone through similar things only to have them minimized by people feigning offense about something so trivial is such a slap in the face. Anyway I know I’ve helped in the derailment of the thread by trying to stand up for the others who’ve been abused, raped and assaulted. So even if someone say’s something as horrible as all women are snakes with tits again, or they’re so offended because someone said something about a dog, I won’t reply to it unless I’m specifically asked. ---
**Author:** ![Discipline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/453 "2010-06-02T06:05:17Z")
Why must I be like that? Why must I chase the cat? Because this thread is fucking retarded. Is there anyone we _haven’t_ insulted yet? Get them in here because we’re on a goddamned roll. (Also, nuthin’ but tha dog in me) ---
**Author:** ![Rala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Rala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rala)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/454 "2010-06-02T16:00:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. It seems as if the _best_ “dog” we can be in this very common simile is the oafish “kinda good in his own clumsy way” dog. The “smart as a whippet, brave and loyal, will support you at all costs” dog almost never makes an appearance in this simile. The dogs like that - the ones that you know are smart and loyal and brave - are _your_ dogs. The analogy was focused on stranger dogs you meet in the street. They may well have any number of great qualities, but at that initial stage where they run up to greet you, or walk on past, or growl at you, you have no way of knowing. Maybe it would have helped if **CCL** had included something like: “And of course, many of us have dogs of our own at home - wonderful, loyal and gentle dogs that would never dream of hurting us - and we love them dearly. But unfortunately, knowing that there are good dogs out there doesn’t make the bad ones any less of a danger.” Anyway, back to the original question. I voted “I have been sexually assaulted by a man I didn’t know”, though my experience was so minor I’m not sure if that’s a good way to describe it. When I was 12 a slightly younger boy ran up to me at lunch time, grabbed my breasts and kind of jiggled them around, yelled “Big boobs!” and ran off. I’d never even heard of anything like that happening before, so it was kind of a “WTF?” moment. I’ve also been catcalled and honked at by passing cars (I got honked three times today while I was walking home), but that’s never really bothered me. I wasn’t exactly happy about it, but it didn’t make me feel threatened either. My reaction was pretty much “Huh. This is a situation that is occurring.” A lot of the women I know have been harassed/threatened/assaulted/raped. Of the girls I knew in high school: One was repeatedly molested by her stepfather. One had a thirteen year old family acquaintance force her to suck his dick when she was six. (The most tragic part is that she was _proud_ of this, thinking it meant she was sexually experienced and desirable.) One was followed back to her hotel room by a man. One met a guy who took photos of her with his phone from the other side of a restaurant and refused to stop. Many have been groped, aggressively hit on and subjected to lewd comments. And that’s just the stuff I know about. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/455 "2010-06-02T18:48:01Z")
> [@Discipline](#): > > Why must I be like that? Why must I chase the cat? > > Because this thread is fucking retarded. Is there anyone we _haven’t_ insulted yet? Get them in here because we’re on a goddamned roll. > > (Also, nuthin’ but tha dog in me) This thread is becoming seriously derailed. I would like everyone, not just **Discipline** , to cease with generalized insults about the ability of others posting in this thread to understand analogies. If this thread is to continue productively, all references to the dog analogy, either pro or con, need to stop. If this thread can continue with a productive discussion of Women and Sexual Assault, the stated title of the thread and purpose of the poll, it will remain open. If it cannot, the thread will be closed, and warnings will be issued to those who fail to follow moderator instructions. Thank you, **Ellen Cherry IMHO Moderator** ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/456 "2010-06-02T23:57:47Z")
**Ellen Cherry** - Thanks. I take solace in the idea that many people who are dismissive, make jokes about and generally don’t understand sexual abuse and its far reaching effects do so because they have had little or no experience of it. That’s my way of dealing with this sad aspect of human nature. Another angle is to wonder whether they themselves are perpetrators of it - whether unknowingly or not. A friend of mine was recently raped and another woman came out with: I don’t see how a woman can be raped if she really doesn’t want to be. :dubious: Okaaay. She knows full well that our friend had her arm in a cast and was woken up to find a sharp knife prodding at her neck at 3am. I guess she **wanted** to be raped rather than murdered then :rolleyes:. I described an incident that had happened to me and how the rapist had rendered me powerless (I won’t repeat how here) and she said - oh, sounds like he really knew what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/457 "2010-06-03T11:56:39Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > Another angle is to wonder whether they themselves are perpetrators of it - whether unknowingly or not. A friend of mine was recently raped and another woman came out with: I don’t see how a woman can be raped if she really doesn’t want to be. :dubious: Okaaay. She knows full well that our friend had her arm in a cast and was woken up to find a sharp knife prodding at her neck at 3am. I guess she **wanted** to be raped rather than murdered then :rolleyes:. I described an incident that had happened to me and how the rapist had rendered me powerless (I won’t repeat how here) and she said - oh, sounds like he really knew what he was doing. Not to create a tangent, but what do you do with a friend like that? I mean, this involves one of the most serious subjects and she doesn’t seem understanding **at all**. It’s almost (or is?) insultingly vapid. Do you remain friends with her and just never talk about it or do you make a concerted effort to make her understand (sit her down, perhaps repeatedly, to discuss the matter)? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/458 "2010-06-03T13:24:37Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Not to create a tangent, but what do you do with a friend like that? I mean, this involves one of the most serious subjects and she doesn’t seem understanding **at all**. It’s almost (or is?) insultingly vapid. > > Do you remain friends with her and just never talk about it or do you make a concerted effort to make her understand (sit her down, perhaps repeatedly, to discuss the matter)? Well, I’m not the person you were asking specifically, but my response to that would be to say something very straightforward about them missing the point entirely, then cut that person off and let anyone who knows asks why. I have this theory in life that assholes need to know they are assholes-- far too many assholes say far too much stupidity and get away with it because people bite their tongues or are trying to keep the peace. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/459 "2010-06-03T14:58:05Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Not to create a tangent, but what do you do with a friend like that? I mean, this involves one of the most serious subjects and she doesn’t seem understanding **at all**. It’s almost (or is?) insultingly vapid. > > Do you remain friends with her and just never talk about it or do you make a concerted effort to make her understand (sit her down, perhaps repeatedly, to discuss the matter)? It’s such a painful subject, and you do get tired of having to be defensive, so I’m with you \*\*Meatros \*\*- WHAT do you do? I’m not going to cast her out because she doesn’t understand - as I said, at least the reason why she doesn’t understand is because it hasn’t happened to her. I spent quite a while with the raped friend trying to do some damage control on that one. It was really shocking for her to realize her friend thought she was “asking for it” or somehow WANTED some fucker to break into her house and rape her. That particular friend has gone right off the deep end now, drinking drinking, pulling dodgy blokes, afraid to go home and just generally saying fuck it. She totalled her new car, she’s only still got her job because her boss is a friend, she’s afraid to do an AIDS test … ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/460 "2010-06-03T15:01:11Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > … then cut that person off and let anyone who knows asks why. I clearly meant “Anyone who asks know why.” Eep, that’s what I get for posting earlier. Sorry! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=24)