# Women and sexual assault. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 15, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563 "2010-05-15T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/101 "2010-05-16T17:00:39Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Knee-jerk shaming language irrelevant to the argument.That’s cheap to say online, since making that claim doesn’t actually cost you any opportunity to meet attractive men. In reality everyone is more open to approaches from, and will make more allowances for the behavior of, attractive people of the opposite sex. Trivially, men likewise tolerate a wider range of behavior from attractive women that they would characterize as overly forward coming from an unattractive one. Now of course there are limits - an out and out bitch would get rejected fast, just as a truly creepy guy would be regarded as creepy regardless of his charm. But they’ll get a lot more leeway than a plain Jane or a dumpy Joe. > > Now I’m not saying that these preferences are evil or even unusual. But we should recognize that they are simply that - selfish preferences rooted in Darwinian behavior - not ironclad rules of conduct. We should try to satisfy the preferences of strangers whenever it is convenient to us, but we should not regard them as some sort of strong moral rule. Your bitterness IS showing though! It’s NOT about how attractive a man is, not if he’s a good looking man who gets a woman’s attention by licking his lips and rubbing his crotch. If Brad Pitt did that to me I’d be just as nervous because no matter how “hot” a person is, that sort of behavior is fucking creepy. I think this is the number one thing guys don’t get. I’ve rejected many men because of the creep factor. It has nothing to do with handsome features. NOTHING. Maybe it’s different with men and girls who come up and grind themselves on their leg. I don’t know, but I think the one I’m with now wouldn’t go for it, because he’s not into women who want to fuck before learning first names. Apparently he’s into “plain Janes” as well. Everyone is different, but one thing is true. If a guy sends out creep vibes it doesn’t matter how “hot” he is. Even a plain Jane like me will steer clear. ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/102 "2010-05-16T17:04:50Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > You’re right. I was getting more and more angry about what he was saying and this calmed me down. He is the type of person we’re talking about, the kind who just don’t get it. > > I also suspect that he is an unattractive man who has been turned down by many women and this is how he makes it be their fault. I mean who in their right mind would go into a thread, where people have told about their most painful experiences, and blame them and their “wrong” attitudes. I’m still waiting to be told how we’ve either all misunderstood, or we’re letting ourselves get too emotional because of the topic or something else equally patronising and dismissive. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/103 "2010-05-16T17:07:47Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I never suspected that “Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you” mean “do not disturb”. 😕 Are you that socially clueless in other regards as well? ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/104 "2010-05-16T17:08:11Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > I mean who in their right mind would go into a thread, where people have told about their most painful experiences, and blame them and their “wrong” attitudes. And say “don’t drag assault and rape into it” when the whole thread is about assault and rape. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/105 "2010-05-16T17:12:21Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > 😕 Are you that socially clueless in other regards as well? I was assuming there was some sarcasm involved there. I hope. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/106 "2010-05-16T17:19:28Z")
This thread has me all sorts of confused/concerned. Mainly, do I really live in a world where many/most of the women I know have been victims of unwanted, aggressive physical contact? What kind of society do we live in where that experience can basically be expected if you’re a woman? And, of equal concern, who among the men I know think nothing of treating women that way? Which friend, who I assume is an honest and respectful person, is actually manhandling other human beings just because he can? ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/107 "2010-05-16T17:34:19Z")
Because men have to way of shutting off the male sex drive it is simply a natural state for us to be in. the vast majority of guys have trouble understanding that our own personal state of “ready to make babies” is not universal. I am 6’3" and about 220#'s I get checked out by guys constantly, straight guys, straight guys who are clueless about painfully obvious signs that I am in fact a rather large male and not in anyway shape or form a hot sexy female…except for my long hair. guys are seriously stupid about women. hopefully this thread opens at least one pair of eyes to the reality that is most womens daily existence. I know for me whenever I come across something like this its a reminder that I am in fact a large scary dude. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/108 "2010-05-16T17:35:57Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > 😕 Do you have problems reading body language in general? Because this one is really, really basic. The article says: “You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her.” These signs are supposed to indicate unwillingness to be approched even before someone says “hi” or even before the woman knows of the man’s existence. You’ve never initiated a conversation with someone whose body was away from you, who was working on a computer, reading a book or looking out a window? If you have, were you rude/creepy/pushy for doing so? Now, if you _keep_ looking out a window, working on a computer etc after someone has initiated a conversation with you, that’s a sign you don’t wish for the conversation to continue. But when I’m looking out a window and someone talks to me, I don’t think “What the hell man, I was clearly looking out a window”. ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/109 "2010-05-16T17:41:11Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You’ve never initiated a conversation with someone whose body was away from you, who was working on a computer, reading a book or looking out a window? If you have, were you rude/creepy/pushy for doing so? Ah. No sarcasm. I see. Ok, no. I have never initiated a conversation with someone who was doing those things, because they were obviously busy and not interested in a conversation with a total stranger. These are non-verbal signals that people use to send out a clear message that they are not interested in talking to people, any people. It’s easier than putting up a sign that says “Don’t talk to me. No, not even you. Yes, really, I don’t want to talk to anyone. Fuck off.” If I had, then I would have been rude and pushy, and quite possibly creepy depending on the precise situation. ETA: Actually, I can think of a circumstance in which it would be ok: if I were utterly lost and on a train or a bus in a place I didn’t know and needed to know if I’d got to my stop. But just to chat? No. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/110 "2010-05-16T17:43:44Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > These signs are supposed to indicate unwillingness to be approched even before someone says “hi” or even before the woman knows of the man’s existence. You’ve never initiated a conversation with someone whose body was away from you, who was working on a computer, reading a book or looking out a window? If you have, were you rude/creepy/pushy for doing so? Yes. Do we actually need to have this discussion? If I’m on the train or bus and reading a book, I don’t want to have a conversation. I want to read my book. If you initiate a conversation, I’m going to think you have extremely poor social skills for interrupting my reading, UNLESS you have an interesting thing to comment about my book. “Oh, you’re reading [book title], huh?” doesn’t cut it. “Oh, you’re reading [book title]! Have you read [author’s other book/book by other author on the same topic]? I thought it was even better” might. I’m pretty sure a man in the same situation would feel the same. It has nothing to do with being a woman, it has to do with being interrupted from my activity. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/111 "2010-05-16T17:49:30Z")
OK, seriously. This isn’t even a male/female thing. If someone on public transportation is reading a book, _please for the love of God do not disturb them in order to make chatty conversation._ I hate this so much. And the people who do it never seem to be able to read subsequent social cues – i.e., me continuing to read my book and failing to engage them in conversation – indicating that I do not want to talk to them; I just want to read my goddamn book. And yes, if you’re on a bus or a train or an airplane and someone is facing away from you and looking out the window, that is an excellent “I’m not interested in chatting” signal and it would be nice for you to respect that. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/112 "2010-05-16T17:51:20Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I’m going to crosspost from the thread linked, as it describes the viewpoints on display here as well.All these supposed “rules” about when she’s in a leave-me-alone state are not about what the guy does, it’s about how attractive the guy is. Brad Pitt (or whoever tickles your fancy) can approach any way he likes and not get called creepy - it’s only undesirable males who are creepy. Totally, totally false. Last year, about 2 weeks before my wedding, a VERY attractive guy was trying to use his masculine wiles to get me to do something. Dude was subjectively more attractive than my now husband - guess what - not interested. I can literally say, that if Brad Pitt had approached me 2 weeks before my wedding his advances would not have been welcome. I am now 7 months pregnant. Ditto - Brad Pitt can go diddle himself in the corner for all I care. I am NOT. INTERESTED. God - your post makes you sound like an idiot. A bitter, twisted idiot that doesn’t get why women aren’t interested in him. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/113 "2010-05-16T17:56:56Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > God - your post makes you sound like an idiot. A bitter, twisted idiot that doesn’t get why women aren’t interested in him. Well, you see, Alice, it’s because women are, fundamentally, whores. If you can buy them shit, they’ll put out. But if you can’t, they won’t even look your way. I know it because I’m a nice guy and women never look at me twice, so it must be because I’m not rich and I don’t look like a movie star. LOOK AT HOW FUCKING NICE I AM, YOU WHORES. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/114 "2010-05-16T17:58:38Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > If you initiate a conversation, I’m going to think you have extremely poor social skills for interrupting my reading, UNLESS you have an interesting thing to comment about my book. There’s no “unless” Kyla. If you’re reading a book, no stranger is supposed to talk to you. “it has to do with being interrupted from my activity”. Of looking out a window. I’ve been talked to by strangers while engaged in activities like working on a computer or looking out a window, I never suspected they were being rude. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/115 "2010-05-16T17:59:02Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > But when I’m looking out a window and someone talks to me, I don’t think “What the hell man, I was clearly looking out a window”. Looking away from other people in a public space is a sign that the person doesn’t want to make eye contact with others. Looking out the window is a way for a person to do that and not feel awkward. I can think of many instances where I was looking at something else so that nobody would initiate conversation. ETA: Michael I think your questions are reasonable. I don’t get the impression that you are one of the pushy guys we’re talking about, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/116 "2010-05-16T18:02:07Z")
We’re probably not doing ourselves any favors (to the extent that we’re actually trying to find common ground) by conflating something like a “some weather, huh?” to a window-gazing fellow passenger with the more pushy and sinister kind of unwanted attention, or even with, say, hitting on somebody who has headphones on. So to be clear, **MichaelEmouse** , I’d say that talking to somebody who is looking out the window on the train is a very extremely mild kind of trampling of his or her personal space, which would require the trampler to be sensitive to the response he or she gets, and be ready to bow out if the response is negative, which more often than not it would be. That is not to say you’re committing a sexual assault or anything like it if you speak to a girl on the train. It _is_ to say that, if you speak to a girl on the train who doesn’t want you to, she _is_ going to be, consciously or subconsciously, associating you with a long list of male persons who have done the same, and she’s going to be wary of the situation as a result. And this is fair and reasonable. And rather than be indignant about it, you should be sensitive to the context which gives rise to its utility as a social tool, even though from your privileged perspective you can say for certain that there’s no harm intended by the approach. And, of course, the more complex the layers of distance between the target of your affections and the world – book, headphones, eyes closed, turned toward the corner, etc. – the more of an invasion it is when you close the distance. Women, particularly younger urban-dwelling women, are actually remarkably adept at closing themselves off to your advances if you’re willing to acknowledge the signs that this is what’s happening. Is that a lamentable state of affairs if you’re a male, particularly a younger urban-dwelling one, well shit yes it is, especially since as it turns out, a pretty girl really can make your day better in a wholly innocuous and bereft-of-violence way. But it’s not the case that it’s a particularly unfair or irrational state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/117 "2010-05-16T18:02:41Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Totally, totally false. > > Last year, about 2 weeks before my wedding, a VERY attractive guy was trying to use his masculine wiles to get me to do something. Dude was subjectively more attractive than my now husband - guess what - not interested. Yup. The worst incidents that I had happen to me were perpetrated by rather attractive men. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/118 "2010-05-16T18:05:02Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > There’s no “unless” Kyla. If you’re reading a book, no stranger is supposed to talk to you. > > “it has to do with being interrupted from my activity”. > Of looking out a window. > I’ve been talked to by strangers while engaged in activities like working on a computer or looking out a window, I never suspected they were being rude. Okay, but that’s something from an article. I’m giving you my own point of view. There isn’t a code for you to follow, you have to have some modicum of social skills of your own. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/119 "2010-05-16T18:12:36Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > We’re probably not doing ourselves any favors (to the extent that we’re actually trying to find common ground) by conflating something like a “some weather, huh?” to a window-gazing fellow passenger with the more pushy and sinister kind of unwanted attention, or even with, say, hitting on somebody who has headphones on. Absolutely, and there’s also a lot of gray area depending upon where you are in the world. Here in the American South, you’re expected to pass a few pleasantries with strangers, and be prepared to tell them where you were raised and where your Mama and Daddy are from. In NYC, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563/120 "2010-05-16T18:18:38Z")
NinetyWt: I know that I’m quite not that type. Jimmy: “I’d say that talking to somebody who is looking out the window on the train is a very extremely mild kind of trampling of his or her personal space, which would require the trampler to be sensitive to the response he or she gets, and be ready to bow out if the response is negative, which more often than not it would be.” Completely agree on that. Kyla, alright, I’ll shut up about that article. I wondered how one can approach women in public in a way that reduces the sense of threat. I was more looking for Dos than a long list of Don’ts written in a hyperbolic style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-sexual-assault/539563.md?page=7)