# Women and "signals" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 1, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929 "2009-03-01T22:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/21 "2009-03-02T03:10:59Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Women should be explicit when they are into you and subtle when they are not. Why shouldn’t they be explicit/specific when they are \*not \*into you too? Isn’t being subtle just leading a guy on? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/22 "2009-03-02T03:21:46Z")
> [@David\_B](#): > > Why shouldn’t they be explicit/specific when they are \*not \*into you too? Isn’t being subtle just leading a guy on? I never said that this was the best thing to do. Only that it reconciles the views posed by Tracy Lord. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/23 "2009-03-02T03:48:07Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > And _PLONK!_ You’ve just dropped to the very bottom of her “viable options” pool. A man who’s “had enough rejection” sends a woman all kinds of bad signals. So he’s risk-averse, at least for the time being. Good for her if she feels she’s worth it, but if he’d rather to wait for a clearer picture, and is willing to just check and pass for now, it should not be a problem to realize each is looking for a different thing. Ideally, she moves on to someone who’s up to it right now; he works it out, gets over it and then moves on to someone with whose signs he’s in sync. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/24 "2009-03-02T04:14:31Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > That means you don’t think you have a chance. Read #2. No, it means I’m not willing to _take_ a chance. That is not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/25 "2009-03-02T04:20:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, it means I’m not willing to _take_ a chance. That is not the same thing. I’m not sure. Honestly, if you were interested, and thought you legitimately had a chance, would you still ignore her? Ed ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/26 "2009-03-02T04:23:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, it means I’m not willing to _take_ a chance. That is not the same thing. Hey, whatever you have to tell yourself… 😉 I could have clarified my statement to say you don’t think you’ll have a good chance. Does that make more sense? ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/27 "2009-03-02T04:28:37Z")
Most of the ‘signals’ mentioned upthread by **elfkin477** are unconcious body language–not deliberate attempts at non-verbal communication. The problem with the use of subtle hints and signals is that they aren’t universal. Signs of rejection are very similar to ‘playing hard to get’ and vary from woman to woman. Signs of romantic interest displayed by one are the same as the signs of mere friendship from another. Every woman sends somewhat different signals and every man interprets those signals differently. It’s not at all surprising that signs are missed or misinterpreted–it would be enormously surprising if they weren’t. You really can’t complain that you weren’t understood when you ‘clearly’ signaled “get lost, you’re not my type”. Not when you had the option to use your voice to say it in a way that can’t be misunderstood and chose not to. Then there’s the other side of the coin. I often get in trouble for, apparently, saying something objectionable through the use of a secret language that I don’t even understand. For instance: I constantly have to tell my wife that I did not, in fact, make a negative comment about what she was saying, how she’s driving, or whatever. What I did was what is known as “breathing”. My diaphram moves, my lungs fill with air, diaphram goes the other way, lungs empty–all unconciously. The timing of the taking in or letting out of breath has nothing to do with what you are doing or saying. (Unless, of course, I employ my vocal chords, lips, and tongue to form what are called “words”–a form of communication common to most men) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/28 "2009-03-02T04:38:05Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Hey, whatever you have to tell yourself… 😉 > > I could have clarified my statement to say you don’t think you’ll have a good chance. Does that make more sense? That is more correct, but my reluctance is backed up by past negative experience. I’ve given up on ambiguity. This generally has two outcomes. I will ask women out without paying any attention to signals (except a few blatant ones like wedding rings) if I find them interesting, and get shot down and sulk for a long time before I’m willing to try that again. Or I’ll wait for a woman to ask me out, which happens every 5-10 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/29 "2009-03-02T05:58:45Z")
All of this back and forth begs the question: Why play the signal game in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/30 "2009-03-02T07:48:37Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Actually, with your example there is a right answer. Women should be explicit when they are into you and subtle when they are not. > > You might not like it, but it is an answer. That’s not what **Alex** is shouting in the other thread. Women aren’t the only ones who can send mixed messages! > [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > All of this back and forth begs the question: Why play the signal game in the first place? Like **CanvasShoes** points out, because we’re humans and that’s how humans communicate. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/31 "2009-03-02T07:50:55Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > “We don’t understand signals” isn’t generally true, even of men. A lot of men who don’t “understand signals” them simply ignore the negative ones. > > Guys, say you’re chatting with someone you’re into and this happens: > > - you lean in close to her. she immediately backs away, increasing the space between you > - you touch her arm. she a. stiffens or b. pulls away > - you say something witty. she doesn’t smile or say anything in response. > - as you continue to speak to her, she crosses her arms across her chest > - when you ask questions, she answers lifelessly, with short words > - and as you still presist, she turns away from you, so you’re now speaking to her shoulder > > How do you think this exchange went? Should you keep trying? Depends. Could be she wants you to go away. Or it could be that she gave you some subtle indication earlier in the evening that she was keen on you, which you missed so now she’s mad at you and wants you to come crawling. Or a whole host of other things. When I was younger I missed out on a lot because I took “no signals” for a clear answer instead of the invitation to negotiate, which sometimes I learned subsequently is what I was being given. Of course “no signals” is probably very often what I was being given. But I know for a fact that sometimes it wasn’t. Don’t pretend you girls are clear and we guys are dumb not to get the message. It’s way more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/32 "2009-03-02T09:19:08Z")
**Princhester.** You say that you could interpret the same signals different ways? And either clear signals or no signals could express interest? You’ve added more info to the given example to make that viable. We \*think \*we’re being clear. We don’t know what you’ve interpreted as “a subtle signal earlier in the evening”. Both this and the other thread were started by guys complaining that a:the signals women give are unnecessary and b:that they’re not clear enough. Because each female will have different body language, depending on her life experience and current mood, just as males will interpret them differently - according to their experience and current mood. Goes the other way too, we women are just as liable to interpretive error when dealing with men’s body language. Are they just friendly or genuinely interested? Being polite? Playing the numbers game? Is this courtesy? Manipulation? Is his barely suppressed anger a threat, or a reaction to some dickwad who stood too close in the toilets? **Elfkin477** never said men were dumb, you interpreted that. She said the vast majority of men would have no trouble correctly reading those two basic body language examples. “Men are dumb” is certainly not the impression I got from reading the same words. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/33 "2009-03-02T09:28:03Z")
The only “Woman Code” I’ve been able to break is this: “He’s an asshole” really means… “I want to fuck his brains out!” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/34 "2009-03-02T11:00:54Z")
This happened to me just the other day. Some gal online was bragging about how great her boobs were, and I naturally said, “well, let’s see 'em!” / _GASP_ “How dare you objectify me that way!”. 😕 Eh, can’t live without 'em, can’t shoot em . . . ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/35 "2009-03-02T12:27:40Z")
I’d keep trying, **SHAKES** , I don’t think you’re there yet. **Koxinga** , unless you do this kind of thing regularly, I assume you’re talking about my thread on [red wine stains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508649). I can see that you’re confused about signals, so let’s go over that thread as an example. _Signal I sent_: I am upset about my favorite shirt, which is my favorite because it makes me look nice, possibly being ruined. I am looking for advice on how to save it. _Signal you received_: WOMEN HAVE BOOBS. BOOBS ARE THERE FOR ME TO OGLE. BOOBS! _Signal I sent_: That’s not what I posted about. Please address the content of my post next time, instead of posting contentless objectification. _Signal you received_: The boob-creature is yelling at me! But why? She brought them up in the first place! I’m a man, what did she expect, respect or a thoughtful contribution? How dare she (and her boobs)?! So clearly there’s some miscommunication there, but on whose end, who can say. More generally, I do this this is a human issue, not a gendered one, with ‘bad’ or unskilled communicators trying to piece together all the aspects of human communication, which is something like 80% nonverbal (is that right?). I try to always be very clear and firm in my intentions. I’ve had my share of ‘mixed signals’ from gentlemen, like the guy who I walked home, holding hands, giggling, kissing on corners, who announced at his door that my night bus left from across the street and to keep quiet because his girlfriend was probably asleep. There’s also something to be said for willful (if subconscious) misunderstanding, where people of both genders refuse to interpret signals that mean, “He/she isn’t interested in me” and keep clinging to romantic hope long after it’s pretty obvious there’s no chance. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/36 "2009-03-02T14:44:14Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I’d keep trying, **SHAKES** , I don’t think you’re there yet. > > **Koxinga** , unless you do this kind of thing regularly, I assume you’re talking about my thread on [red wine stains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508649). I can see that you’re confused about signals, so let’s go over that thread as an example. > > _Signal I sent_: I am upset about my favorite shirt, which is my favorite because it makes me look nice, possibly being ruined. I am looking for advice on how to save it. > _Signal you received_: WOMEN HAVE BOOBS. BOOBS ARE THERE FOR ME TO OGLE. BOOBS! **Actual words used** /Statement made: > [@Red wine stains](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-wine-stains/487842/1): > > … and has excellent darts that makes my waist look tiny and my boobs look _amazing_. Sorry, I disagree, the actual words you used override the signal you claim you to wanted to send. > [@Red wine stains](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-wine-stains/487842/17): > > The boobie mention was incidental, and I don’t think I should have to pretend I am a sexless, shapeless creature in order to avoid boring lecherous responses. IF the boobie mention was incidental, why did you mention it? You chose to mention it (them), the advice on getting red wine stains out of a shirt doesn’t depend on whether said stained shirt covers male or female boobies, does it? And may the record reflect I am in favor of female boobies, in or out of white or other colors of shirts, with or without red wine stains 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/37 "2009-03-02T15:11:49Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Sorry, I disagree, the actual words you used override the signal you claim you to wanted to send. Okay, that’s fair enough. I was trying to communicate how important the shirt was to me by describing all the things I like about it, and I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that those incidental descriptions wouldn’t detract from the main content of my post. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/38 "2009-03-02T15:25:57Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > Okay, that’s fair enough. I was trying to communicate … And in the spirit of the OP, I was just illustrating that we don’t always communicate what we think we are (I myself have done so once or twice or 50 times … in the last 24 hours 🙂 And I’m glad you got the stain out ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/39 "2009-03-02T15:47:10Z")
Isn’t that the opposite of what the OP is saying, though? The OP is frustrated because he thinks women are sending secret signals we expect men to pick up on, but I intended to communicate completely above-the-line and **Koxinga** claims he picked up on signals I wasn’t sending at all! I’m glad too! It’s an awesome shirt, I was really panicked about it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929/40 "2009-03-02T16:04:01Z")
I’m not necessarily addressing Tracy’s boobs here, but IME a few times women around me have gotten _most_ peevish when I ignored or failed to pick up on signals they would vehemently deny ever sending in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-and-signals/487929.md?page=3)