# Women Artists Who are Horrible People **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921 "2016-12-05T13:49:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/81 "2016-12-08T04:13:14Z")
> [@Grumbacher\_Red](#): > > This isn’t horrible at all, just along the lines of typical diva behavior, but I’ll share it anyway. > My Aunt & Uncle owned the beach house on Fripp Island, SC that was used in the filming of Prince of Tides in about 1990. They are both deceased now, but were also personal friends of the author Pat Conroy, who had a home nearby. Babs rented the house next to theirs and lived in it during filming. In the evenings Nick Nolte and Blythe Danner would hang out and sit with my Aunt & Uncle and Conroy, along with various members of the crew. Streisand was very aloof, didn’t speak to them, despite their best efforts to be friendly and include her in their hospitality…I mean, they opened up their home for this movie, for quite a small compensation and quite frankly, a lot of headache and inconvenience, yet they were gracious about it. Crew members even stayed there at the house. Barbra would come out of her house next door and walk around on the deck and gaze out at the ocean, but would never come over, never look at anybody, etc…basically acted like these people weren’t worth her time, not even a simple “hello” could she be bothered with. And it’s not like my relatives were some kind of classless bottom-feeders, either, they were fairly wealthy, well-connected, educated people. > > Again, not horrible. But awfully snotty. And I know every bit of this is true. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what her attitude was like. But maybe Streisand was tired after filming and found it more relaxing to stay at her place rather than socialize with strangers, even as nice as I’m sure they were. I’m also guessing Streisand’s workday was longer than Nolte and Banner’s since Streisand directed the film. When I think diva type behavior, I don’t really think of someone just not coming over to hang out. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/82 "2016-12-08T04:39:14Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I find it interesting that, in this thread, women are held to an entirely different standard than their male counterparts. Women who’ve had affairs [gasp] or been irascible or difficult to put up with or a diva. Or the mere mention of some names suffices, without explanation. Do these rise to the level of Crimes Against Nature? Not crimes against nature, exactly, but definitely a horrible person. All of those could apply to John Lennon, who, despite his talent, was a complete and utter douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![Grumbacher\_Red](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Grumbacher\_Red](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumbacher_Red)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/83 "2016-12-08T04:47:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what her attitude was like. But maybe Streisand was tired after filming and found it more relaxing to stay at her place rather than socialize with strangers, even as nice as I’m sure they were. I’m also guessing Streisand’s workday was longer than Nolte and Banner’s since Streisand directed the film. When I think diva type behavior, I don’t really think of someone just not coming over to hang out. I hear ya, and I understand she was probably tired, but especially being the director, a simple, “Hello, nice to meet you, thanks so much for letting us use your house” would have sufficed. They didn’t expect to become her new BFFs or anything. And if Blythe Danner, who is responsible for bringing us uber-snooty Gwyneth Paltrow (who was also there with her mother, btw) can speak to people and manage not to be rude…well, you know… And tying this back to my other comments about aging gracefully and performing, I do have to give Streisand credit where credit is due in that department. She looks great, and has moved way past Funny Girl and A Star is Born, seems to embrace the different stages of her life, and that’s all any of us can do, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/84 "2016-12-08T05:21:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what her attitude was like. But maybe Streisand was tired after filming and found it more relaxing to stay at her place rather than socialize with strangers, even as nice as I’m sure they were. I’m also guessing Streisand’s workday was longer than Nolte and Banner’s since Streisand directed the film. When I think diva type behavior, I don’t really think of someone just not coming over to hang out. The thing is, she is well known for being that way. South Park noted it. [She even has a phenomenon named after her](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect), based upon her standoffishness. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/85 "2016-12-08T05:57:15Z")
Streisand also married James Brolin. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/86 "2016-12-08T07:16:39Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Okay, why? Her name sounds fake and it makes it hard to Google. I only found one interview where she seems like a nutjob but harmless. I know her since high school, that’s definitely her real name. She was just a nasty, hateful, vindictive person, and totally two-faced about it as well. I know a number of people who ended up on her Enemies List for no reason other than she thought they were her competition in some way: she would be sweetness and light to their faces, character assassin behind their backs. Horrible person. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/87 "2016-12-08T08:34:47Z")
> [@Grumbacher\_Red](#): > > I hear ya, and I understand she was probably tired, but especially being the director, a simple, “Hello, nice to meet you, thanks so much for letting us use your house” would have sufficed. They didn’t expect to become her new BFFs or anything. And if Blythe Danner, who is responsible for bringing us uber-snooty Gwyneth Paltrow (who was also there with her mother, btw) can speak to people and manage not to be rude…well, you know… Madonna, Streisand, fair game as far as I’m concerned. But no one is bad-mouthing Blythe Danner while I’m around. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/88 "2016-12-08T13:39:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Wow I just read a Moira Greyland article. I am sorry she suffered, but what a fucking nutjob. The cadence of her writing is even mentally telling. She’s not a “fucking nutjob”, she’s a survivor of child and sexual abuse. I don’t know what you’re objecting to there. > [@Grumbacher\_Red](#): > > And I also want to say, learning all this about MZB does make me feel about 50 layers of conflicted…because I adore The Mists of Avalon! I realize that many differ on this, but I can separate the artist’s works from the artist. I’m not giving up my Darkover books. On the other hand, when I talk about them to someone unfamiliar with the scandal I let them know about it so they can decide whether or not to read them since so many people do fell carry-over squick. In the end, it should be a choice on the part of the reader. That said - when reading Moira’s essay I could see a lot of them themes that were presented in MZB’s work as positives and, in fact, horrible things to put into practice in the real world. But then, I long thought MZB’s presentation of polyamory, group marriage, free sex, and lesbianism to be somewhere between flat out wrong to wishful thinking. They probably were wishful thinking. That is, in some ways, the provenance of science fiction writers. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yes. The tl;dr is that her father called himself gay and so possibly did her mother, and both are pedophiles, therefore she thinks that all gay people are pedophiles. Look, I think she’s wrong on that point but given her past I can understand why she came to that conclusion. I disagree with her, but don’t condemn her for her viewpoint. > [@Grumbacher\_Red](#): > > And she says both her parents pushed the idea that everyone is actually a closeted homosexual, and that everyone should get to have sex with anyone, familial or not. And also that the only way to get everyone to accept their own homosexuality is early sexual activity, the earlier the better. That’s some of the most twisted, cringe-worthy “theories” about sexuality I have ever scrubbed my eyeballs across. I needed to bleach my brain after reading that. Sadly, I’ve encountered those attitudes long before I read Moira’s essay - there _are_ people who believe those things and even try to put them into practice. Probably the most egregious one I’ve personally experienced was a woman who, _in front of my husband_, insisted that I was really actually a lesbian but just didn’t know it yet and I just needed the right woman to show me the truth of the matter (with her, of course, being that woman). Which is _very_ small potatoes compared to what Moira and others have gone through. Anyhow, “everyone is really a homosexual, they just don’t know it” is just the flip of “everyone is really a heterosexual and homosexuality is a learned perversion”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/89 "2016-12-08T13:43:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Anyhow, “everyone is really a homosexual, they just don’t know it” is just the flip of “everyone is really a heterosexual and homosexuality is a learned perversion”. Is there something that made you think that \*\*Grumbacher \*\* would disagree with this? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/90 "2016-12-08T13:55:43Z")
Nope, I think I was just surprised that someone was surprised that such, shall we say, dysfunctional attitudes are out there. Then again, having worked in the social services field at one point I’ve known people whose life stories make Moira’s look mundane and tame by comparison. Some truly horrific things happen, so horrific that most people would rather doubt the victim than accept that such horrific things occur. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/91 "2016-12-08T14:09:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That said - when reading Moira’s essay I could see a lot of them themes that were presented in MZB’s work as positives and, in fact, horrible things to put into practice in the real world. I think that’s a valid sticking point despite the whole “I can separate their works from their lives” angle. When you’re effectively reading a defense or promotion of the author’s sins under a guise of fiction, it goes beyond “Well, he murdered nuns and orphans but I can still appreciate his cat paintings”. If you’re a good person and you write about bad things, fine If you’re a bad person and you write about unrelated bad things, I’ll give it a chance If you’re a bad person and you’re using your work to defend the bad things you’ve done and calling it art, eh… there’s enough quality stuff from categories A & B that I don’t need to take part. ---
**Author:** ![Grumbacher\_Red](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Grumbacher\_Red](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumbacher_Red)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/92 "2016-12-08T14:34:34Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Madonna, Streisand, fair game as far as I’m concerned. But no one is bad-mouthing Blythe Danner while I’m around. I’ll make a point of remembering that! 😉 And she herself was lovely, so it’s somewhat of a mystery where her daughter acquired all that pretension. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/93 "2016-12-08T14:46:16Z")
I might have missed the post, but I didn’t see any athletes mentioned. Off hand I can’t think of any truly horrible women athletes, certainly not like a Ty Cobb. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/94 "2016-12-08T14:47:41Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > Does figure skating count as an art? If so, I nominate [Tonya Harding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonya_Harding). > [@notfrommensa](#): > > I might have missed the post, but I didn’t see any athletes mentioned. > > Off hand I can’t think of any truly horrible women athletes, certainly not like a Ty Cobb. Tonya Harding has been mentioned. And deservedly so! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/95 "2016-12-08T14:48:45Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > I might have missed the post, but I didn’t see any athletes mentioned. Ronda Rousey was mentioned for beating her ex-boyfriend and Tonya Harding for having her rival’s knees whacked. ---
**Author:** ![Grumbacher\_Red](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Grumbacher\_Red](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumbacher_Red)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/96 "2016-12-08T14:49:19Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nope, I think I was just surprised that someone was surprised that such, shall we say, dysfunctional attitudes are out there. Then again, having worked in the social services field at one point I’ve known people whose life stories make Moira’s look mundane and tame by comparison. Some truly horrific things happen, so horrific that most people would rather doubt the victim than accept that such horrific things occur. I really _was_ surprised, and it’s not like I have lived some super-sheltered life, or anything. I have had, and am still having, a few adventures of my own. 😉 I also have had quite a number of gay male friends over the years, and they would joke constantly about this or that hunky male celebrity being gay and just doesn’t know it & needs them to show them that they are, etc… I always took it for exactly what it was, joking and fantasies, and wishful thinking. They didn’t seriously think the whole world is homosexual and doesn’t know it. I do find it completely shocking that somebody would actually put these ideas into practice in a group setting over such a long period of time. It is warped, and sad, and I do feel so very sorry for her children. So if Moira acts a little off the beam, then it’s pretty understandable. As for separating the artist from the work, that’s the subject of the thread and the struggle to be grappled with, isn’t it? I have been able to sort it out in my head with other artists and historical figures, given some time, so I expect I will be able to process this out too. I never read anything past The Mists of Avalon, never got into any of her other work, so likely I will just leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/97 "2016-12-08T16:25:48Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Ronda Rousey was mentioned for beating her ex-boyfriend and Tonya Harding for having her rival’s knees whacked. And I’ll add U.S. Soccer goalie Hope Solo, who has a history of questionable sportsmanship, making rude comments, and a marriage which has featured her being involved in violent altercations several times. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/98 "2016-12-08T16:38:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If you’re a bad person and you’re using your work to defend the bad things you’ve done and calling it art, eh… there’s enough quality stuff from categories A & B that I don’t need to take part. I could be wrong on this, but I get the sense that MZB wasn’t writing those things as defense so much as a wish fulfilment. And really, the sex was not the primary focus of her Darkover series. It does become a focus or a plot device at times, but there’s considerably more there than that. There always were some Darkover stories I didn’t care for, and most of those were what I called radical lesbian separatism in theme. Nor was it always a matter of all sex is good - there are people terribly hurt by sex abuse in those stories. Sexual slavery is definitely depicted as a negative, as is rape. The puzzling thing is that she didn’t see what she was doing to her daughter as rape. Or she didn’t care. It seems, based on my limited information, that MZB was herself a victim of abuse. While not all victims carry on abuse another generation it’s not unheard of either. The whole business strikes me as a multi-generational mess that involved a lot of denial and co-dependent type behavior. That in no way excuses anything, but I do feel understanding how this situations come about can be useful both for helping the victims and for trying to avoid future damage. I think MZB had a fantasy of group pansexuality where everyone was happy all the time but that’s not realistic, and damn few people can really handle polyamory. Victims of sexual abuse with untreated damage from that abuse are almost certainly incapable of a healthy form of polyamory. I’m not at all surprised everything went down the shitter in real life and it’s tragic that so much damage was done to her children. I don’t think hiding these things benefits society (or the victims) in the long run. This sort of abuse thrives in the shadows and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light in order to clean things up. I don’t think banning or destroying an artist’s body of work is the solution to the problem(s). It’s possible to enjoy much of the Darkover series without delving into the abusive passages. I think there might be a role for discussing how the disturbing passages in the series do or do not relate to real life, the differences between the fictional treatment and reality. On the other hand, because I am not a survivor of sexual abuse I can look at and discuss the subject in a very different manner than many survivors. It doesn’t hurt me personally the way it can hurt them. At this point I’d steer people to the Darkover novels that are less problematic (including those stories by others than MZB) and I certainly wouldn’t argue with anyone who disposes of their copies or refuses to read the books from an ethical standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/99 "2016-12-08T16:41:05Z")
> [@Grumbacher\_Red](#): > > I really _was_ surprised, and it’s not like I have lived some super-sheltered life, or anything. I have had, and am still having, a few adventures of my own. 😉 > > I also have had quite a number of gay male friends over the years, and they would joke constantly about this or that hunky male celebrity being gay and just doesn’t know it & needs them to show them that they are, etc… I always took it for exactly what it was, joking and fantasies, and wishful thinking. They didn’t seriously think the whole world is homosexual and doesn’t know it. I do find it completely shocking that somebody would actually put these ideas into practice in a group setting over such a long period of time. It is warped, and sad, and I do feel so very sorry for her children. Yeah, the vast majority of the time that’s what it is - joking around. That’s why it can be shocking when you meant someone dead serious about the “joking”. > [@](#): > > So if Moira acts a little off the beam, then it’s pretty understandable. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921/100 "2016-12-08T16:55:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > At this point I’d steer people to the Darkover novels that are less problematic (including those stories by others than MZB) I do kind of wonder what is up with the woman who is continuing the Darkover series. MZB supporter? Lucked on to a paying writing gig and doesn’t want to rock the boat? That’s a heck of an ethical morass to have gotten trapped in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-artists-who-are-horrible-people/773921.md?page=6)