# Women as crossdressers/transvestites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2000, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780 "2000-06-08T18:39:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/41 "2000-06-14T15:08:41Z")
From [http://heartcorps.com/journeys/everything.htm](http://heartcorps.com/journeys/everything.htm), a transgender support site: > [@](#): > > There are four aspects to Human Sexuality. They are: 1. Anatomical (physical) sex 2. Sexual Orientation 3. Gender Identity 4. Mental Sex > > Anatomical sex is simply what body you are in: male or female. But it is really not all that simple. There are hairy women and very slender men. Facial features can range from more “male” to more “female” regardless of what’s between one’s legs. In addition, there is the chromosomal nature of being XX, XY, or even XXY… So, all things considered, each and every one of us can not simply be seen as wholly male or female physically, but truly occupy a range on a spectrum. And, we can alter our physical sexually characteristics (short or long hair, nose jobs, sex change surgery) so that the line blurs even more… > > {Sexual orientation} comes in four flavors: same, opposite, both, or neither. Regardless of anatomical sex, any individual might be any one of these four… > > Gender Identity describes where on the scale of masculine and feminine behavior an individual falls… {it} does not fall at a single point, but ranges in a segment of the masculine/feminine line… > > Mental Sex: In the 12th to 14th week of pregnancy, a developing fetus will get a wash of hormones over its brain. Boy babies get a flush of testosterone, girl babies get a flush of estrogen… those with a testosterone wash tend to see the world in more logical terms, more spatial terms… Because men tend to fall toward the spatial end of the scale and women to the temporal, society has built up rewards to motivate the population based on the expectation of this bias according to anatomical sex. And, most nearly often, this is an accurate system. But when something causes an individual to get the opposite pre-birth bias than anatomical sex would suggest, he or she is technically a transsexual {is physically one sex, but has the mental processes of the opposite}… > > In psychology, stress caused by feeling one is in the wrong body is called genital dysphoria, and stress caused by feeling on is living in the wrong role is called gender dysphoria, which lumps gender identity and Mental Sex into one overall symptom. > > Those who have enough pressures upon them from all four of the aspects of human sexuality may choose to remedy their uneasiness through surgical means. Other combinations of these tendencies will lead an individual to choose to cross-dress and experience femininity or masculinity occasionally, yet continue to live in the role which pleases him or her most of the time. The term “transgendered” describes both of these kinds of people. Those who elect surgery are transsexuals, and those who do not are cross-dressers (the term transvestite means the same as “cross-dresser”, but is not considered politically correct.) So unless a woman is _intentionally_ dressing like a man _in order to satisfy some desire of their gender identity_, they’re not transvestites or transgendered - they’re just dressing comfortably. This, of course, makes them lesbians. 😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Centerline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Centerline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Centerline)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/42 "2000-06-14T16:29:59Z")
I don’t know how this relates to the OP, if not, I appologize. Back a few years, my daughters GOT to have gerbils. So a vet friend of mine gave us 2. Boy are they productive! In no time at all, we got maybe twenty. I decided that they must be seperated so as not to spread. I checked them as best I could to identify the male from the female and seperated them into two containers. Among them was a smaller one that I grouped among the female. Within a day, I noticed that all the other females were ‘attacking’ poor Mousy. Mousy got scratches, hairs pulled out, etc. Then I noticed that the attacks were more like humping! Upon further examiniation, Mousy does seem to be male (sometimes its hard to tell). So I put Mousy among the males. Well, the males now attack Mousy the same way! I don’t know, maybe Mousy goes both ways, or maybe Mousy is coated with the smell of the females. To this day, I don’t know the answer, but I thought it was amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/43 "2000-06-14T16:51:13Z")
[quote] It wasn’t his girlfriend that murdered him, it was a bunch of bigots who murdered them both (plus another person). [quote] \*\* I understand it wasn’t his girlfriend who murdered him. It doens’t change my position though. [quote] It seems to me you’re suggesting that _prior to getting sex reassignment surgery_ Brandon never should have left the house dressed as a man. [quote] \*\* Then you’re reading something I never said. The only thing I think Brandon did wrong was enter into a romantic relationship without making the other person aware. In my book that’s wrong. > [@](#): > > OK, so it seems some of his _former_ girlfriends felt deceived, but as I have no idea as to whether or not these were long-lasting relationships, or meaningful to either party, or if they had sex, or whatever the circumstances might have been. Still, it seems that Lana was his most significant relationship, if for no other reason she accepted his transexualism and still loved him. ``` That still didn't make it ok for him to do that. ``` > [@](#): > > I find it distasteful to even be discussing this. I wouldn’t presume to think any of his actions, including lying to people, were inherently wrong on their face - no issue, especially one as complicated as this one, is so black and white. When I walk a mile in his shoes, then maybe I’ll feel more comfortable condemning his actions. Then by all means don’t discuss it. If you found it so distasteful I don’t understand why you bothered replying. I think in the case of romantic relationships Brandon was unfair to others and you disagree. That’s ok. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/44 "2000-06-14T17:23:17Z")
Hey, **Moe** - learn how to use that /quote feature. You’ve neatly dodged several questions I posed to you. > [@](#): > > I think in the case of romantic relationships Brandon was unfair to others and you disagree. Please explain to me how Brandon should have behaved in his interpersonal relationships in order for you to consider his actions to have been fair, and please detail as much as you can. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/45 "2000-06-14T21:03:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Hey, **Moe** - learn how to use that /quote feature. > > You’ve neatly dodged several questions I posed to you. > > > [@](#): > > > > I think in the case of romantic relationships Brandon was unfair to others and you disagree. > > Please explain to me how Brandon should have behaved in his interpersonal relationships in order for you to consider his actions to have been fair, and please detail as much as you can. > > Esprix > \*\* Hey, **Bub** , there’s no reason to be rude. Nor did I dodge anything. I’m talking about Brandon’s \*\*romantic \*\* relationships not his interpersonal relationships in general. I think it was unfair to those girls for Brandon to have hid his physical sex from them. Do you understand my point of view now? Yes I understand it is a fairly complex and especially difficult thing for such a young person to work out. I’m not damning Brandon or claiming that he was a horrible person. But he was aware that none of them would be interested if presented with his physical form and he took affirmative action to hide it from them. He even picked girls who were sexually naive so they wouldn’t discover his true nature. That’s not an ok thing to do in my book. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/46 "2000-06-14T22:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m talking about Brandon’s romantic relationships not his interpersonal relationships in general. I think it was unfair to those girls for Brandon to have hid his physical sex from them. Well, Marc, that raises the question of exactly how and when he should have stopped hiding it. (Hmm, that doesn’t sound quite right, but never mind.) You say it’s not the “interpersonal relationships in general” that are the problem; in other words, it was reasonable for Brandon to live as the man he considered himself to be when hanging out with his friends, talking to his girlfriend’s mother, talking to waitresses or employers, etc.—and, presumably, while getting to know the girls who eventually became his lovers. Where would you consider the line to be crossed between “maintaining a male identity in an interpersonal relationship” and “lying about his sex in a romantic relationship”? Would a brief pre-coital announcement of “By the way, honey, just wanted to let you know that this is plastic and these aren’t” be sufficient? (A little mood-wrecking, don’t you think?) Should he have revealed his chromosomal femaleness before even flirting with a girl? Before kissing her? Before petting? Before oral sex? Is it surprising that he might not had very clear ideas about how much to reveal and when? By the way, if a chromosomal male is impotent or otherwise disabled in male sexual functioning, at what point would you consider that honesty requires him to reveal this to a lover? Mind you, I sympathize with the girls who objected to being deceived, and I think “be honest with your lover” is always a good rule. I’m just not sure you’ll be able to come up with a good practical suggestion for exactly what Brandon ought to have done differently. It’s easy to say “be honest,” but society tends to be quite harsh to people who are honest about things like being a man in a woman’s body. > [@](#): > > He even picked girls who were sexually naive so they wouldn’t discover his true nature. I don’t think we have any reason to assume that Brandon “picked” girls for any other cause than that he liked them. And we know that his last girlfriend, at least, had had at least one sexual relationship before Brandon. I’m not saying Brandon was a saint—he obviously had a number of problems. But most of what he went through and put others through seems to have been what he was saddled with because of other people’s problems—namely, the intolerance our society shows towards transgendering/transsexuality. I don’t feel good about criticizing someone in such a position. Kimstu ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/47 "2000-06-15T00:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, Marc, that raises the question of exactly how and when he should have stopped hiding it. \*\* The answer to when is before the first date. Although I don’t imagine that will be a very popular answer here. As to how, well, you just tell them. > [@](#): > > Where would you consider the line to be crossed between “maintaining a male identity in an interpersonal relationship” and “lying about his sex in a romantic relationship”? The line is crossed once you attempt to form a romantic relationship. > [@](#): > > Is it surprising that he might not had very clear ideas about how much to reveal and when? By the way, if a chromosomal male is impotent or otherwise disabled in male sexual functioning, at what point would you consider that honesty requires him to reveal this to a lover? At the point it became relevant. > [@](#): > > Mind you, I sympathize with the girls who objected to being deceived, and I think “be honest with your lover” is always a good rule. I’m just not sure you’ll be able to come up with a good practical suggestion for exactly what Brandon ought to have done differently. I suppose what is right and what is practical aren’t always the same things. I still maintain that it wasn’t fair to the girls he was dating. Whether Brandon’s behavior was excuseable or not is an entirely different subject. Marc PS Yes, I think under the circumstances his behavior was excuseable. Only because he was a very confused person. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/48 "2000-06-15T00:58:15Z")
Esprix wrote: > [@](#): > > Bottom line, though, is that none of us have ever been in [Brandon Teena’s] shoes, and could never know what was going on in his head (Hollywood’s attempts to do so aside). To broadly label him a deceitful liar is patently unfair. However, we **do** know that Brandon Teena was convicted of Grand Theft Auto back before he started dressing as a man, and we also know that he was using a fake ID card (under the name Charles, I believe) that was neither Teena Brandon’s identity **nor** Brandon Teena’s identity. These don’t automatically make him a deceitful liar, but they do raise doubts about his overall trustworthiness. It is entirely possible that Brandon lied to Lana when he was in jail by telling her that he was a hermaphrodite rather than a straightforward transsexual. ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/49 "2000-06-15T05:05:32Z")
\*\* Lamia wrote: The real Lana Tisdel has several objections to _Boys Don’t Cry_, one of them being that scene. She says that she did not have sex with Brandon after she found out that he was physically female.\*\* > [@](#): > > Ah. That makes more sense. > > I guess inaccuracies like this are what you get by letting a lesbian direct a movie about a transsexual. Lesbians are just **so** much more mainstream than transsexuals are these days 😉 . Hmmmmmm, actually you can’t take what Lana say at face value. According to the filmmaker Lana changed her story a few times during the interviews as to when actually she knew that Brandon was physically female. At one point she knew about Brandon before they became romantically involved. Otehr times she claimed she didn’t know until Brandon was forcibly stripped in the bathroom. What you have is a conflicted girl who has harsh attitudes about homosexuality/transexuals on one side and her feelings for Brandon on the other. Her comments reflect this. If you watch the DVD of Boys Don’t Cry with the director track on, you’ll hear the director talk about which points of the stories involved conflicting testimony and why she would choose the version of events that she did. Though, she never explains why she never included the third murder victim, which I found frustrating. Though, I suspect it was basically because it would involve too much explanation about why he was there nd he was cut for time. Still seems to be pretty harsh to have a murder victim cut because of convenience. **MGibson** , I can see your side of the argument. I really do. Brandon was a sweet kid who had good intentions (he stole money to buy his girlfriends gifts), but still had a lot of growing up to do. Then again, his family wasn’t happy with his gender problems, he had already been through therapy, he wasn’t living in a liberal area of the country, was still figuring things out for himself, and craved love and acceptance just like any other kid. It is incredibly difficult in that situation to play things by the book. It’s one of those situations that you can make definite opinions about. However, once placed into that situation yourself, you might just find that you would act contrary to your earlier opinions. It’s hard to know exactly how you would act, because you have probably not been in a situation where you had a major aspect to your personality that isolated you from others. Also, I want to nitpick your assertion that Brandon intentionally chose sexually immature girls. That implies calculation on his part. From what I’ve heard of Brandon, he didn’t exactly plan out much in his life. He seemed to be living from moment to moment with the operation as his only goal. Brandon was just barely 21 when he died. He was dating girls near his age. Girls around that age tend to be sexually immature. Also, he had no life plan, no property, and essentionally only had his likable personality and charm to woo the girls with. A more world weary woman would probably write him off as sweet, but a lot of trouble whereas a young naive girl would fall all over him. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/50 "2000-06-16T05:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > What you have is a conflicted girl who has harsh attitudes about homosexuality/transexuals on one side and her feelings for Brandon on the other. Her comments reflect this. \*\* I think the whole ordeal confused and traumatized her. Bad enough that someone she loves turns out to be something different, but that person is also killed, and it puts her in the local/national spotlight. > [@](#): > > \*\* > **MGibson** , I can see your side of the argument. I really do. Brandon was a sweet kid who had good intentions (he stole money to buy his girlfriends gifts), but still had a lot of growing up to do. \*\* I’m willing to cut Brandon some slack on deceiving his girlfriends. I’m not willing to cut him some slack for stealing to buy his girlfriends trinkets. I wouldn’t classify anyone that stole from me as being sweet. Maybe I’m just a hard ass that way. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, I want to nitpick your assertion that Brandon intentionally chose sexually immature girls. That implies calculation on his part. \*\* Yes it does imply calculation. At least in the case of women I think he was fairly calculating. He took great pains to hide his sexual identity and that shows some sort of calculation, no? From the rest of your description of him he sounds like a lot of other young men who are able to deceive young girls for their own purposes. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/51 "2000-06-19T15:14:08Z")
I understand that a tv/cd should not be expected to come clean with every Joe-Blow they come in contact with, but I am amazed that a few of you feel it is perfectly okay to keep this information from someone with whom they enter a relationship. Maybe my definition of trust and honesty differs from some of yours, but I find it extremely deceitful for a tv/cd to enter into relationship without telling the other person of their true, physical gender as well as their future plans. As so many other things that come in the person’s “package” (children, ex-wives, how much they drink, do they smoke, etc.), I want to know things about this person BEFORE I become emotionally involved. I think it not only shows deceit, but is extremely unfair to take away my choice as to whether or not I want to be involved with the ramifications that may come from certain things in your lifestyle. It is my choice to be with someone who smells like an ashtray or has responsibility to 10 children with 5 ex-wives. It is my choice whether or not I chose to be involved with someone who gets loaded every Friday night or has opposing views on abortion or squeezes the toothpaste from the top. It should also be my choice to become involved in a lifestyle that includes sexual relations with someone of my own gender, as well as the surgeries, the therapy, and everything else the tv/cd endures. Before I get jumped, let me say that I am not judging anyone nor am I suggesting anyone change. I am only stating that we all deserve the respect that lets us make our own choices in stopping or furthering a relationship. I have gotten involved in relationships that include things I have been less than fond of, however, I made the choice to whether or not to accept them. To hide your physical gender (or previous gender for those who have completed the surgeries) from a potential partner is wrong and deceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780/52 "2000-06-19T15:18:45Z")
**MGibson** , I do understand your point, but what I have been taking exception to is your “hardass” line about it. Since neither of us have the “correct” answer as to when or how, exactly, he should/could/would have told his friends and/or girlfriends about his physical identity, and neither of us is transsexual ourselves, I will simply disagree with your hardline stance until someone who’s actually been through it steps forward and tells us about it. I guess it’s what you wrote here: > [@](#): > > He took great pains to hide his sexual identity and that shows some sort of calculation, no? that makes me prick up my ears. Of course he went to greeat pains to hide his sexual identity - he was a self-identifed male in a physically female body. He was trying to live his life as honest to himself as he could. It was others, society, whatever that caused him grief, struggle, and, IMHO, forced him to “lie” in order to be who he truly was. So was he honest, or was he deceitful? Was being true to himself secondary or primary compared to being true to others? Eh, it’s all moot now - he’s dead. Bottom line is I could never, ever understand, so I’m going to way wicked give them the benefit of the doubt. Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-as-crossdressers-transvestites/21780.md?page=2)