# Women: Attractiveness and dismissal of your professional achievements **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 14, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648 "2010-11-14T17:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/41 "2010-11-15T22:25:24Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > get everybody in the US a free flat screen– Deep down, I too wanna be Oprah for a day 😛 > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Parents. Isn’t that sick? \ but my experience is that most of those comments about beauty and ability come from women-- middle aged women specifically. Granted, it might just be my confirmation bias, but I’d say that the vast, vast majority of those comments come from female judges that appear to be about 35-50. “Don’t you want to go do something fun, like cheer leading? You’re so pretty!” Or “You’re so beautiful, but boys just aren’t attracted to girls who act so smart.” Insanity. That is twisted. Though I can’t say it’s entirely uncommon. I sometimes live in a bubble where my mother is an MD and my grandmother (now 90) has a masters. Real life is my friend’s mom who works in the dad’s office doing “paperwork”. A world where my future MIL overheard another mother say “When you grow up you can have a man give you a biiiig ring”. WTF, kid can’t buy her own bling? We still live in a world where most women 45+ don’t have careers, they have “jobs”, and whenever possible, don’t work at all. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/42 "2010-11-15T22:28:26Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > That is twisted. Though I can’t say it’s entirely uncommon. I sometimes live in a bubble where my mother is an MD and my grandmother (now 90) has a masters. Real life is my friend’s mom who works in the dad’s office doing “paperwork”. A world where my future MIL overheard another mother say “When you grow up you can have a man give you a biiiig ring”. WTF, kid can’t buy her own bling? We still live in a world where most women 45+ don’t have careers, they have “jobs”, and whenever possible, don’t work at all. Jesus. Yeah, it’s definitely not an ideology I was raised around, but I guess I can at least understand that it is a pretty commonly held belief. . .even if I do think it’s awfully stupid. My family was always really big on pushing me to be as intelligent, strong, and capable as possible-- constantly telling me that I could be anything I wanted to be, so long as I worked hard. Maybe that’s why when I got those debate ballots at 14 or 15 years old, they were so jarring to me. Never before had somebody shot me down just because I was pretty or female. It was a bitter pill to take, but I guess a lesson we all have to learn. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/43 "2010-11-15T22:36:42Z")
Holy shit. I did debate in high school, too, and loved the little gavels they’d give me when I’d won. I meant to keep them all, but I lose things, and finally lost the last of them sophomore year of college. We’d received comments, and not once has anyone made a reference to my appearance. If anyone did, I’d be pissed. The bulk of my criticisms, if any, focused on my, ahem, somewhat aggressive debating style. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/44 "2010-11-15T22:37:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I have a few advantages in the “not dismissed due to my good looks.” > > I’m 45, not 25. When I was 25 things were sometimes a little different. And when I was 25, I was much better looking in the way that people tend to be when they are 25 and everything is still tight and glowing - over 45 and things have started to fall a bit. > > I’m a brunette. I’ve always suspected blondes have it harder. > > I go out of my way to project a professional appearance. Makeup, not too much. Nails done - not bright colors, not too long. Clothing, flattering - not slutwear. > > I have two kids and a husband who works a demanding job. So my career is secondary - I’m not climbing the corporate ladder - more sitting and enjoying the view from where I am. > > I’ve seen women get hired for their looks (and suspect I was early on more than once) - but usually into jobs where competence is less important and the people in charge can afford to have a secretary or receptionist with big…eyes. Now that there are a lot fewer secretaries and receptionists, I suspect there are a lot fewer jobs that can be done merely because you are eye candy. Once in though, you need to prove yourself. Similarly, I’m 44. In my 20s, I was pretty cute. No, not super model gorgeous or anything. Just cute. Now, I’m entering the age when women become invisible. I can’t say I’ve ever had a hard time due to my looks. I’m a natural brunette, but I’ve had blonde hair and red hair. So long as my appearance was business like, I never had a problem being taken seriously. Had I been more “sexy” rather than just “cute,” it may have been different. If I’d had large breasts or bedroom eyes, thing may have gone differently. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/45 "2010-11-15T22:40:19Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Holy shit. I did debate in high school, too, and loved the little gavels they’d give me when I’d won. I meant to keep them all, but I lose things, and finally lost the last of them sophomore year of college. We’d received comments, and not once has anyone made a reference to my appearance. If anyone did, I’d be pissed. The bulk of my criticisms, if any, focused on my, ahem, somewhat aggressive debating style. Ha! Me, too. Though usually the comments were, “You’re so pretty. . . but it’s not very ladylike to be so aggressive and argumentative.” Again, I’m not pretending that these were anywhere near the majority of the comments I received, but the fact that some slipped through to me (especially when coaches go through and check to see which ballots need to be “lost” just for this reason), makes me think that there may have even been more. Oh, and reading the comment before this post: I do have (and have had) large breasts, long brown hair, and an hour glass shape. I’ve looked like that since I was about 12 and even in the most conservative suit, my little 16 year old self probably looked rather scandalous. Even when I’m not trying now, people regularly make comments about what I’m wearing or my body (which isn’t nearly as bangin’ as it was when I was 16, let me tell ya’.) I guess the good thing is that its put me in a place to help my female students now, because I know what it’s like and can help them deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/46 "2010-11-15T22:48:19Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > … > When I was a little debate champ in high school, I cried many tears over some of the ballots and comments I received. I couldn’t understand why people were focusing on how I looked, when I worked so hard to be intelligent and capable. Sometime around the age of 17, it hit me: I could cure cancer, find peace for the Middle East, and get everybody in the US a free flat screen-- but there’d still be a good chunk of the population that would look at that and think, “Aw, what a sweet, pretty girl- isn’t it lucky that she figured all that stuff out? Good for her! I wonder who helped her?” Oddly, realizing that was really liberating. I guess it was understanding that there are just some things that people think that I can’t control. As soon as I realized that, I realized it would be smart to use their biases to my own advantage. You’re such a _clever_ girl to think of all that! You didn’t hurt your poor sweet little head with all that thinking, did you? Surely, someone helped you reach that conclusion, though - I don’t think you could have thought of it all by yourself. Now, put some lotion under your eyes - you look a little tired. (Maybe from all that thinking?) Musn’t let our looks go too quickly, dear. You’ll never trap a man looking all puffy and tired. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/47 "2010-11-15T22:48:49Z")
I’m an hourglass as well, and have been since puberty, so yes, that meant idiot boys harassing me at school, and whatever else comes with being shapely around high school boys. Still, nothing about my appearance ever came up at a debate. Among boys behind my back, maybe, but they never actually wrote it down on my feedback. Also, when I won my debates (which was almost always! :D), no one ever said, “Oh, it’s because you’re so pretty.” My assumption is because that _wasn’t_ the reason. But I did hear a lot of, “Debate is a popularity contest like everything else,” and people whining that I won because the crowd likes me. Life lesson, chump. Personality gets you places in life. That aside, of course it was still insulting to hear people say I only won the debate because people liked me. That’s not even true! A lot of people didn’t like me! ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/48 "2010-11-15T22:53:32Z")
Yeah, I definitely had a brief period there where I got inundated with inappropriate comments from judges (including several asking me out!!! :eek:), but definitely being a coach now. . . I see how bad it really is. Obviously, we try out best to protect the kids from inappropriate comments and such, but man, you’d think parents would be less . . . disgusting. And I mean disgusting by literally hitting on the kids or making comments about their bodies AND disgusting by being biased against the kids for all sorts of things. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/49 "2010-11-16T02:30:48Z")
Let’s cut to the chase here. **MeanOldLady** is correct. Everyone likes pretty girls to be around in lots of circumstances but most professional settings aren’t those. We just want the job done and don’t care how you look overall. It is just about being well put together and it is possible to do that in lots of different ways like basic hygiene, nice clean clothes, and a style that flatters you. The most important asset is a sharp mind and a tactful tongue. This is an irritating topic in general. Some females claim that they can’t get ahead because they aren’t good looking enough, others claim that they aren’t taken seriously because they are too good looking. You can’t have both ways. Contrary to popular belief, most males just want to work with competent females. Some females do get jealous of females that play the sexy card but that isn’t under my control. Let’s also be frank. Most of you that are claiming this fact have to have something else going on in the belfry. You simply can’t be that good looking to cause people’s minds to shut down in your presence and not listen to what you say especially after they know you. A well put together persona is always an asset, not a negative and people are not popping boners and moisting themselves when you walk into a room if you are over 30 even if you think you don’t look like it. It just doesn’t happen. There are a handful of occupations where being very attractive can be an asset like a salesperson, a movie star, a TV personality, or a model but none where being presentable is a negative. If you truly believe that, you need to investigate other explanations (or just wait until you are 60 when people should see you for you you really are inside). ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/50 "2010-11-16T02:37:46Z")
Aren’t you the guy who said women can’t be real friends in my [Meetup.com](http://Meetup.com) thread? _checks_ Yeah, you are. Opinion dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/51 "2010-11-16T02:45:22Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Aren’t you the guy who said women can’t be real friends in my [Meetup.com](http://Meetup.com) thread? > > _checks_ > > Yeah, you are. Opinion dismissed. I was talking about women being petty with one another in that thread not men being petty with attractive females. That is a different topic of discussion. In all honesty, I could see an attractive female in a mainly female dominated workplace being brutalized for her good looks but I was thinking of a more typical professional workplace with more sex balance. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/52 "2010-11-16T02:59:20Z")
Any of you guys try to make yourselves look less attractive, to try it out? It seems it’s actually pretty easy for an attractive person to make themselves look less attractive. And, if the attractiveness is really the problem, that should help. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/53 "2010-11-16T03:04:09Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Aren’t you the guy who said women can’t be real friends in my [Meetup.com](http://Meetup.com) thread? > > _checks_ > > Yeah, you are. Opinion dismissed. Dear Lindsaybluth, You shouldn’t have even had to check on that one 😉 Yer pal, Sleeps ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/54 "2010-11-16T03:30:40Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > **Observer** , I’m sure you’ve experienced people treating you like some punk kid because you were, or appeared to be, young. I’m sure that’s happened to many of us. It’s happened to me, and semi-occasionally happens to me now with one particularly cunty 55 year old co-worker who is an epically terrible bitch to everyone woman she has to work with who is under 30. No, really. Every. Single. One. She actually yelled at one girl, who ran off into the bathroom crying. :eek: But that woman’s a whore, and I don’t think she hates us because we’re beautiful. We’re all average looking, for the most part; she just hates her life. > > Originally Posted by InterestedObserver > My last night there, I told a co-worker, “I refuse to be treated like a teenager!” > He, a 45 or so yr old guy, said, “Well, you LOOK like a teenager.” > What a wildly inappropriate thing to say! It seems like, though, for the most part people initially treated you like a dummy because they thought you were young, and once corrected, behaved differently. > > I completely agree..it WAS a very inappropriate thing to say. > > One can see how that would be the case when attitudes about young people seem to go something like this: > > Quote: > > As I’d suspected, she’d assumed I was some 20-something twit the agency had sent and needed a babysitter. > > OK, just to be clear, I was being facetious and expressing a view I do NOT, personally, hold. Just one I have encountered. I was not a “twit” in my 20s and I have known many who were/are “twits” in their 70s. Please don’t assume I am buying into that stereotype just because I cite it. > > Quote: > > But those who are considered “good looking” do experience discrimination sometimes, though it takes different forms than those considered “not good looking”, and is probably offset more by preferential treatment. > To the extent that it exists, I’d reckon. To the extent that WHAT exists? Discrimination against the “good-looking” or the “not good looking”? They both exist, in my experience. I consider it just as wrong to discriminate based on 'good" looks as on “ugly”. All I was trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/55 "2010-11-16T03:52:09Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Dear Lindsaybluth, > > You shouldn’t have even had to check on that one 😉 > > Yer pal, > Sleeps I swear to god if you try to be my pal I’ll stab you in the back and then grind my stilettos into your kneecaps. I can see your roots / I am a stereotype, **lindsaybluth** ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/56 "2010-11-16T04:19:56Z")
I voted average and no detriment, but in fact, my professional accomplishments, such as they are, are so separated from my actual person that it would be downright weird if there were any correlation. Having said that, I have often been hired, only to find that I am in an office full of people who have a lot of the same physical characteristics. I looked quite young for quite a long time, but I don’t think that hurt. People just assumed I was a genius to have gotten so far, so fast.\* And in fact, when I was young, in the business I was in, age wasn’t exactly an asset, and being young wasn’t exactly detrimental. At one point, in the '80s, I had a boss who had read some Dress For Success book or something, who advised me that I would be taken more seriously if I dyed my hair brown. In this case, he was talking about brown as opposed to my natural color, not brown as opposed to purple and pink. Of course he also told me there were very few women qualified to be managing editors and I would get all sorts of preferences when job hunting, and that turned out to be not the case. \*Er, well, nobody ever came out and said that… ---
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/57 "2010-11-16T04:23:43Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Yeah, I definitely had a brief period there where I got inundated with inappropriate comments from judges (including several asking me out!!! :eek:), but definitely being a coach now. . . I see how bad it really is. Obviously, we try out best to protect the kids from inappropriate comments and such, but man, you’d think parents would be less . . . disgusting. And I mean disgusting by literally hitting on the kids or making comments about their bodies AND disgusting by being biased against the kids for all sorts of things. This is extremely concerning to say the least, I participated in debating during high school (In Australia) and Judges (well we called them Adjudicators) were provided by an independent body and read their comments allowed at the end of the debate. Obviously it may not be possible to have an independent body provide the judges for your competition but you may be able to have them read their thoughts aloud rather then letting them hide it on a note this would (I hope!) put a stop to any inappropriate comments. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/58 "2010-11-16T04:27:37Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > This is extremely concerning to say the least, I participated in debating during high school (In Australia) and Judges (well we called them Adjudicators) were provided by an independent body and read their comments allowed at the end of the debate. > > Obviously it may not be possible to have an independent body provide the judges for your competition but you may be able to have them read their thoughts aloud rather then letting them hide it on a note this would (I hope!) put a stop to any inappropriate comments. Yeah, you’d think that. . . but we don’t let judges disclose because the results are far, far worse if we do that. Trust me. It’s best if there’s a buffer (ie: coaches reading the ballots before distributing them). ---
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/59 "2010-11-16T04:47:24Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Yeah, you’d think that. . . but we don’t let judges disclose because the results are far, far worse if we do that. Trust me. It’s best if there’s a buffer (ie: coaches reading the ballots before distributing them). Wow, I just don’t know what to say, It pisses me off so much that people like this could easily ruin an activity like debating which (when I was involved, I’m a guy btw) had very few women involved. You sound like a great coach, do the best that can be done with what you’ve got. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648/60 "2010-11-16T04:57:41Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > Wow, I just don’t know what to say, It pisses me off so much that people like this could easily ruin an activity like debating which (when I was involved, I’m a guy btw) had very few women involved. You sound like a great coach, do the best that can be done with what you’ve got. 🙂 I think because I’ve personally experienced it, I look at it like this: while I 100% agree that the children should be protected from this adult foolishness as much as possible, the reality is that sexism\* in all its forms is something these girls need to learn to understand and deal with. Is it exactly the same for everybody? Absolutely not, but I suppose it’s better to learn now, in something not as important in the big picture (like an extracurricular activity) and somewhat controlled, then later on when applying for their dream job, etc. etc. It sucked learning that lesson as a teenage girl- sitting sobbing in the cafeteria between debate rounds, but it has prepared me for the sexism I encounter every so often in my grown up job. Thank you for the compliment, btw 🙂 \*I consider “but you’re such a pretty girl. . .” and things like that to be sexism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-attractiveness-and-dismissal-of-your-professional-achievements/560648.md?page=4)