# Women competing with men **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 30, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520 "2005-06-30T15:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/81 "2005-07-05T19:12:44Z")
> [@Boldface Type](#): > > Yes, but where the rubber hits the grit (or whatever), the top women simply have not climbed at the same level as the top men - on any type of climbing, even slab and crack. Now, the top women are truly awesome, but they are not at the same level as the men - and I predict they will never get there. Plus, even in cutting edge climbing there is a need for finger / forearm strength (or power endurance) which women do not have to the same degree as men. > > In fact, she would be about 2 miles behind a top male marathon runner. Radcliffe’s world record for the marathon is 2hr15, whereas the male best is c.2hr04. She would beat very many top men, but not the elites. I agree that the currently the best climbers in the world are men. BUT I believe this is because more men climb than women. That is, if climbing was more popular to women, and the numbers of women climbing matched those of men, women would gain the upper hand or at least equal men’s accomplishments. It is not because of lack of ability or strength (If you would see Katie Brown climb, it would convince you of ample finger/forearm strength and power endurance). ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/82 "2005-07-05T21:07:25Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > I agree that the currently the best climbers in the world are men. BUT I believe this is because more men climb than women. That is, if climbing was more popular to women, and the numbers of women climbing matched those of men, women would gain the upper hand or at least equal men’s accomplishments. Fewer woman than men participate in all sports, but there is not a single instance of one female being better than the best men in any conventional sport. Even though Katie Brown is incredible (as is Beth Rodden), she’s still a couple of grades down from the best of the best. > [@](#): > > It is not because of lack of ability or strength (If you would see Katie Brown climb, it would convince you of ample finger/forearm strength and power endurance). Ample, yes, tremendous even. But not as good as the best men can develop. Plus it seems likely that the very hardest climbs in the future will be severely overhanging (re. Rouhling’s _Akira_) where women will be at a relative disadvantage. There’s a limit as to how difficult merely vertical / slabby rock can become while still actually being climbable. I think it’s quite possible that women could equal men on slabby rock, though even that has not happened yet. Anyway, I’d happily lay cash on the line that the world’s hardest route will never be put up by a woman, and no woman will win the world climbing champs… S. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/83 "2005-07-06T07:32:07Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > I agree that the currently the best climbers in the world are men. BUT I believe this is because more men climb than women. That is, if climbing was more popular to women, and the numbers of women climbing matched those of men, women would gain the upper hand or at least equal men’s accomplishments. It is not because of lack of ability or strength (If you would see Katie Brown climb, it would convince you of ample finger/forearm strength and power endurance). This seems to be a reasonable position, and I tend to agree with you, but it is interesting to keep in mind **Hello Again** ’s post: > [@](#): > > What’s interesting is that women and men are about 50/50 on the highest level of English riding… but at the lower levels the sport is 98% women. Different sports, to be sure, but it does tend to refute the idea that women aren’t top contenders in any sport because so many fewer women play them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/84 "2005-07-06T15:28:17Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I could easily believe the girl’s gymnasts being just as good as the men at men’s routines. I mean, no matter how much smaller your muscle mass is, just how hard is an 80 pound iron cross? If a lot of your muscle mass is concentrated below the shoulder girdle, very difficult indeed. I would bet that even a super-elite female gymnast would have problems executing a decent planche or press to a handstand. Women just aren’t as strong as men in the upper body, and training widens that gap, not narrows it. > [@js\_africanus](#): > > I’ve seen a number of articles and news reports of girls doing just fine w/ the boys in high school wrestling. I have not, and I would like to see a cite. Compete? Sure, that happens occasionally. Win? Not much. IIRC, there was a blurb in “Faces in the Crowd” in Sports Illustrated a while back of some woman who was preparing to compete in women’s wrestling at either the national or international level. She was on her high school team, and wrestled boys. IIRC, her record at the time was 4-8. So what amounts to an elite women’s athlete complies a record against local high school opponents that is mediocre at best. Certainly that is impressive, for a girl competing against boys. But that is just the problem - much of the time, women’s athletic achievements occur under some kind of handicapping. I just finished a book called Ladies of the Court, about the women’s pro tennis circuit. Back in the 90s, there was a match between Jimmy Connor and Martina Navratilova. Jimmy was winding up a largely unsuccessful comeback at the age of 35, while Martina was still competing and winning on the women’s circuit. So they had a match, where Martina only had to win a game by three points and Jimmy couldn’t hit into Martina’s alleys. Connors won, 7-5, 6-3. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/85 "2005-07-06T19:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by tremorviolet > Last time this subject came up, I mentioned an article I’d read that indicated if the billiard’s championship were co-ed, women would sweep the field. But I was unable to find the cite. In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=140054), Sam Stone (who seems to know about billiards) offers this: > [@](#): > > An interesting question is why can’t women compete against men in billiards? Other than 9-ball, strength is not important at all. Straight pool, for example, requires no strength whatsoever other than the ability to hold a cue over a table. Snooker is similar. And yet, women can’t come close to competing against men. The world record run for a woman in straight pool is 84 balls. My personal high is close to that, and I can’t even stay competive in local amateur tournaments. Good college players can run 150-and-out to win a match. The world record for a male is 568 balls, by Willie Mosconi. > > Allison Fisher, currently the #1 women’s 9-ball player in the world (and the best female snooker player in the world) tried to make it on the men’s snooker tour, and she couldn’t crack the top 100. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/86 "2005-07-06T19:30:32Z")
> [@Hung Mung](#): > > I’m willing to bet that women could probably do well against men in volleyball. In fact, I’d like to see that. Volleyball appears to value many of the same attributes as basketball: strength, speed, size, jumping ability, accurate shotmaking, etc. So is it not plausible that the relative performance of women and men in volleyball would be about what is seen on the basketball court? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/87 "2005-07-06T20:22:22Z")
Quoth **Cemetery Saviour** (and echoed by others): > [@](#): > > Then again, I woudl see the women in this Battle Royale winning all of the uneven parallel bar competitions by default! Would someone mind explaining this one to me? It seems to me that the women’s uneven bars are very similar to the men’s high bar. I suppose that if you took the current crop of high-level gymnasts, the women would probably outperform on the uneven bars, just because that’s what they’ve practiced at, but the same could be said of any hypothetical mixed-sex gymnastics event. But then, if one were to so radically alter the sport(s) of gymnastics, then it’d probably be a different set of people competing, with different inherent abilities, and training differently. But given the similarities between the bar events for both genders, I’m just not seeing why one would think women would have an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/88 "2005-07-06T21:25:25Z")
> [@max power](#): > > Horse racing has female jockeys but seems to be dominated by men. My cousin has been a very successful jockey for more than a decade and her petite but extremely strong build is a distinct advantage. Male jockeys very often ruin their health by extreme dieting, diuretics, etc. to maintain weight but her stature and some good genes from her father (also a jockey) allow her to maintain weight with seemingly no effort. > [@](#): > > Of course, the horse is doing a lot of the work in these sports 🙂 True but don’t think the jockey is just a passenger, it’s one of the most demanding athletic professions there is. My cousin may look like a swimsuit model (she once worked part time as a Bud girl) but she’s tough as a rawhide bag full of granite chips on the track. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/89 "2005-07-06T21:38:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Cemetery Saviour** (and echoed by others):Would someone mind explaining this one to me? It seems to me that the women’s uneven bars are very similar to the men’s high bar. Here’s my take on it but I could be wrong… Ever see the women do the move on the uneven bars where hanging on the higher bar they go over the top and land their hips/pelvis on the lower bar (while still hanging on to the higher bar)? Seems like a great way for a guy to cause some real pain for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/90 "2005-07-06T21:49:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Here’s my take on it but I could be wrong… Maybe I am wrong. I just looked for some videos for an example of what I am talking about and have not seen the move I described performed at all. In only one case did the woman doing the routine even seem like it could have even been possible. All the rest the lower bar seemed much too far away such that the gymnast would have trouble hitting it with her feet. Either the bars have been separated or the female gymnasts are a lot smaller than they were back when I remember seeing this done (unless I am losing my mind…a distinct possibility but I could swear I have seen that trick done because I remember thinking that’d just have to hurt a guy). ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/91 "2005-07-06T22:17:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe I am wrong. I just looked for some videos for an example of what I am talking about and have not seen the move I described performed at all. In only one case did the woman doing the routine even seem like it could have even been possible. All the rest the lower bar seemed much too far away such that the gymnast would have trouble hitting it with her feet. Either the bars have been separated or the female gymnasts are a lot smaller than they were back when I remember seeing this done (unless I am losing my mind…a distinct possibility but I could swear I have seen that trick done because I remember thinking that’d just have to hurt a guy). **Whack-a-Mole** , I think the bars have moved farther apart. I remember seeing the move you’re describing when I was younger, but I haven’t seen it in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/92 "2005-07-07T02:00:24Z")
The bars have been moved further apart. I’m a gym coach and former gymnast, **Alice** and I’m afraid I can’t agree with you. And I really can’t see any resemblance whatsoever between beam and pommel. I’m confused about that one! The men do more difficult vaults than the women. For example, in Athens, many men were competing yurchenkos with 2.5 twists, while the top women were competing yurchenkos with double twist. I also don’t think the women tumble higher than the men, although they don’t tend to do as many triple twists as the women. I think the men could compete on the women’s apparatus, and the women on the mens, but as someone pointed out, beam is so completely different to any of the women’s events and rings is so completely different to any of the women’s events - who could know the result? ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/93 "2005-07-07T02:01:37Z")
> [@Burnt Sugar](#): > > I also don’t think the women tumble higher than the men, although **the men** don’t tend to do as many triple twists as the women. (to clarify) ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/94 "2005-07-07T02:15:32Z")
> [@Burnt Sugar](#): > > (to clarify) In Olympic figure skating, the men typically perform slightly more difficult moves. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520/95 "2005-07-07T02:22:32Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > In Olympic figure skating, the men typically perform slightly more difficult moves. I’m not saying they _can’t_ do triple twists - hell, they twist better than the women on vault. I just thought it was interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-competing-with-men/310520.md?page=4)