# Women in PANTS??? Not in MY yearbook!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039 "2005-02-26T19:36:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/81 "2005-02-27T21:00:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > OK but men and women are not equal, they are different “Alike” and “equal” are not synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/82 "2005-02-27T21:04:20Z")
I’ll ignore your ludicrous blithering about how it’s sexist to be attracted to one gender or the other, which was obviously motivated only by the fact that you were talking to a gay man, and continue with the discussion at hand: > [@kanicbird](#): > > I feel she was pretty insulting to other women by not choosing to wear the standard dress for the photos. How? You’ve yet to explain this. It’s not as if she was wearing a “fuck you” t-shirt; she was wearing formal wear, the same as everyone else. > [@](#): > > There is another side issue that no one has touched upon. She may have gender misidentify and actually feel as if she is male and it would be betraying herself to have such a official photo. Because that’s the only possible reason a woman wouldn’t want to wear “women’s clothes”: because he’s actually a guy. Right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/83 "2005-02-27T21:15:01Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > You’re one letter off, but given the circumstance, I’m not sure which one. 😃 :smack: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/84 "2005-02-27T21:16:00Z")
Shouldn’t the school yearbook committee have the final say on it, not the principal? I remember when I was on the school newspaper in HS some dickwad sued us and the yearbook committee for not running abstinence ads (which went against our express and stated policy) and it went up to the SCOTUS and they ruled in our favour. [This](http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/dec97/96-1623.01a.html) is the case. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/85 "2005-02-27T21:34:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Otto** you know for you I’d do anything. 😉 > OK then why was this issue even mentioned? When the girl herself said it wasn’t related? Why, indeed? > [@](#): > > OK but men and women are not equal, they are different and people view different people differently (welcome to humanity). True (well, not that they are not equal, in every important sense they are, but that they are different.) But those differnence don’t impose some sort of eternal mandatory dress code. What is considered “masculine” or “femminne” artire fluctuates widely through different ages and cultures. I’m betting a lot of guys had there pictures taken with an earring or hair below their collars. So why make a big deal about this? Things change (welcome to humanity). > [@](#): > > I feel she was pretty insulting to other women by not choosing to wear the standard dress for the photos. I would find it pretty insulting to be asked to wear a tube top or not get to have my picture included. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/86 "2005-02-27T21:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “Alike” and “equal” are not synonyms. Ok this is correct, but I have yet to run across 2 things that are different yet equal. > [@](#): > > I’ll ignore your ludicrous blithering about how it’s sexist to be attracted to one gender or the other, which was obviously motivated only by the fact that you were talking to a gay man, This does not even make sense, a gay man DOES have a gender preference, as does a straight man, it is a non-issue. > [@](#): > > I feel she was pretty insulting to other women by not choosing to wear the standard dress for the photos. > > How? You’ve yet to explain this. It’s not as if she was wearing a " I see it as her basically saying that though I was born female, just like the rest of you, I chose to spit on female customs and embrace male customs as I think them better, and I want to be better then the rest of you. Again this is how I see it, YM(most likely)V’s. > [@](#): > > Because that’s the only possible reason a woman wouldn’t want to wear “women’s clothes”: because he’s actually a guy. Right. No, but is it a possibility which could help explain it. At least I’m open to the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/87 "2005-02-27T21:39:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I see it as her basically saying that though I was born female, just like the rest of you, I chose to spit on female customs and embrace male customs as I think them better, and I want to be better then the rest of you. Again this is how I see it, YM(most likely)V’s. Hi, I’m the bellboy. You want me to take all that baggage up to your room? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/88 "2005-02-27T21:39:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Ok this is correct, but I have yet to run across 2 things that are different yet equal. How about **men** and **women**? Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/89 "2005-02-27T21:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > But those differnence don’t impose some sort of eternal mandatory dress code. What is considered “masculine” or “femminne” artire fluctuates widely through different ages and cultures. I’m betting a lot of guys had there pictures taken with an earring or hair below their collars. So why make a big deal about this? Things change You make a good point, except that we are not unisex, and even though dress codes change, we still to the day have vast differences between male and female cloths. > [@](#): > > I would find it pretty insulting to be asked to wear a tube top or not get to have my picture included. Again I agree that there should be a conservative option available. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/90 "2005-02-27T21:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok this is correct, but I have yet to run across 2 things that are different yet equal. > > How about men and women? > > Dumbass. My-my resorting to namecalling. No person is equal to any other person, to deny this denys reality. We try to make people equal legally, but outside of a legal framwork it is an illusion. One twin is not equal to the other. Each person is unique with positive and negative attrubutes. I don’t believe it is possiable to find out that a person is ‘greater’ then another, actually I don’t think the simple mathmatic greater then less then can ever apply. It’s like you saying a apple is euqal to an orange, which on it’s face is absurb. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/91 "2005-02-27T21:58:37Z")
Actually I have changed my mind on the topic. If she though the women’s dress to be too revealing AND brought it to the attention of the school when she first realized this, I think it would be acceptable for her to wear the only option available that would preserve her dignity. This more of an issue of her seeing the female dress as obscene however. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/92 "2005-02-27T21:59:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hi, I’m the bellboy. You want me to take all that baggage up to your room? You might need more help, so gimme a call. I’ll be in the break room. Seriously, being so offended that the girl chose to express herself is only a little less absurd than the actions of the principal. What a high school attitude. > [@kanicbird](#): > > No person is equal to any other person, to deny this denys reality. We try to make people equal legally, but outside of a legal framwork it is an illusion. One twin is not equal to the other. Each person is unique with positive and negative attrubutes. You sound like you’re having a problem separating “equal” from “the same.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/93 "2005-02-27T22:24:29Z")
Where you’re failing to make the leap of comprehension here, **Kanicbird** , is that “male and female clothing” are **social custom** , not something written into divine or statutory law. A tuxedo does not have a penis or Y chromosome; a formal gown does not have a uterus nor does it undergo a menstrual cycle. They are clothes that have traditionally come to be worn by males and females respectively – but there is nothing binding about that. (Note the reference above to Marlene Dietrich having worn a tux in public entertainment venues prior to my and I presume your birth.) Nor do I think she was making a statement about her sexual preference or expressing gender confusion – she was, rather, making a statement that most Americans feel capable of making: I am free to do what I choose, to express myself as I choose, except as restricted by laws established by the elected representatives of myself and my peers. There is no Federal or Florida statute barring women from wearing tuxedos if they so choose; all there is is a school principal enforcing what **he** considers a “tradition” – in, be it again noted, the **first** publication of a yearbook for this school. I would have to really stretch a point to call an arbitrary decision regarding a never-before-occurring event a “tradition.” Perhaps it offends you that the young woman wished to be photographed in a tuxedo. That is your privilege. It is not, however, your privilege, nor that of the principal, to enforce your personal tastes on another. Not yet, anyway. America does still remain a free country, where you can **usually** get to choose what to do in accordance with your own tastes. Despite efforts by the self-appointed authorities of both left and right to enforce their tastes on everyone, that still remains true. In fact, I have to defend your right to express your views, however stupid I consider them, in this thread, to remain consistent with the principle that I’m presenting. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/94 "2005-02-27T22:30:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually I have changed my mind on the topic. > > If she though the women’s dress to be too revealing AND brought it to the attention of the school when she first realized this, I think it would be acceptable for her to wear the only option available that would preserve her dignity. > > This more of an issue of her seeing the female dress as obscene however. Wow. Mindreading. I didn’t see anywhere that she found female dress obscene. Or that she was “spitting” on female attire or that she looked down on her fellow females who wore same. Where are you finding this? I think she just chose what she felt most comfortable in. I said I would not have wanted to be forced into a tube top…but not because I think its’ obscene as such…just because I would have felt like an idiot. I by that I mean \*I \* would have. Me. No one else. No reflection on anyone who happened to be in a tube top. You know…you’re making this case for no one being “equal” but you seem to be saying all females should be “equal” (and all males I guess) in conforming to one gender standard. For goodness sake, why? If she’s not confortable in a dress why put her in one? I wasn’t, when I was in high school. And it had nothing to do with looking down on anyone. I’m delight to be livig in a time when (for the most part) people can wear what they are comfortable with, and my boyfriend can grow his hair long and I don’t have to put on makeup and heels to leave the house. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/95 "2005-02-27T22:33:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No person is equal to any other person, to deny this denys reality. We try to make people equal legally, but outside of a legal framwork it is an illusion. One twin is not equal to the other. Each person is unique with positive and negative attrubutes. > > I don’t believe it is possiable to find out that a person is ‘greater’ then another, actually I don’t think the simple mathmatic greater then less then can ever apply. It’s like you saying a apple is euqal to an orange, which on it’s face is absurb. Huh? First you say that no person is equal to any other person, then you say that it’s not possible to determine whether one person is greater than another. Also, you are demonstrating a continued inability to understand the difference between “alike” and “equal.” An apple and an orange may not be alike, but i don’t understand in what sense you can say they are unequal. Same with men and women, gay and straight, black and white, old and young, short and tall, left- and right-handed, smart and not-so-smart, Yankees fan and Red Sox fan. In all these cases, there are fundamental differences that makes the two categories not alike, but these differences do not alter the fundmental equality of these people _qua_ people. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/96 "2005-02-27T22:58:24Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Maybe I can clear up what, exactly, she was ‘supposed’ to wear - I have a feeling it’s practically identical to what I had to wear for my senior pic. > > The girl’s thing isn’t a top, per se. It’s actual vaguely tube-top like, made (usually) out of black velvet - [this](http://www.angelfire.com/tn/tifni/moi/senior/senior.html) looks pretty standard (note: I have no clue who that person is, I just googled senior yearbook picture). The photo company provides them, an usually tux jackets/shirts for the guys. You go into a seperate area and change. Girls generally need a hand, because the way the thing stays on you is a pull-cord in the back. It runs through the top, and when you pull it, it tightens so it (theoretically) doesn’t fall down to your waist. You don’t want to make any sudden movements wearing it, though, because secure it’s not. At my school, they also take pictures of you wearing whatever you want for your own pictures, but only the drape/tux ones can be put in the yearbook. > > On one hand, I can understand the desire for a ‘uniform’ look in the yearbook pages. On the other hand, A) the girl in question didn’t break the uniformity, just the ‘feminine uniformity’, and B) I’m not entirely convinced that “Everyone must look the same!” is an attitude we really want to be pushing. :dubious: Are those things back? They look like something my mother wore for her yearbook photo in the 1950’s! My school had the very non specific guideline of “nothing in bad taste.” Oh, and we were told not to wear black since it caused problems for the photographer. Mostly the girls wore sweaters and the guys wore suit jackets with ties. It’s funny, we wore uniforms year round but we had leeway with our yearbook photos. I don’t know what the big deal is. The girl didn’t show bad taste in her photos. She’s not shockingly breaking gender roles by wearing a _tux_. Maybe if this were 1895, she would be. But I doubt anyone in 2005 is getting a attack of the vapors by seeing a woman in a tux. And why bring her sexual orientation into it? She didn’t wear a rainbow flag drape or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/97 "2005-02-27T23:07:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually I have changed my mind on the topic. > > If she though the women’s dress to be too revealing AND brought it to the attention of the school when she first realized this, I think it would be acceptable for her to wear the only option available that would preserve her dignity. She did wear the option available for preserving her dignity. The tux. I don’t understand how this got to be such a freakin’ issue. She looks adorable in the tux. E. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/98 "2005-02-27T23:25:23Z")
> [@MaddyStrut](#): > > She didn’t wear a rainbow flag drape or anything. Though wouldn’t it have been great if she had? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/99 "2005-02-28T00:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > You sound like you’re having a problem separating “equal” from “the same.” Good point, Though I am not willing to concede it, I will consider it. > [@](#): > > Where you’re failing to make the leap of comprehension here, Kanicbird, is that “male and female clothing” are social custom, No this one I understand. The private school wishes to have a dress code for class pictures which conforms to social customs of the day. Also children DON’T have the same rights as adults. I’m sure their parents signed some papers allowing the principal to set standards which their daughter must follow or risk expulsion or disciplinary action. > [@](#): > > In fact, I have to defend your right to express your views, however stupid I consider them, in this thread, to remain consistent with the principle that I’m presenting. Thanks at least that makes one of you (or at least that’s how I sometimes feel here) > [@](#): > > I didn’t see anywhere that she found female dress obscene. Or that she was “spitting” on female attire or that she looked down on her fellow females who wore same. Where are you finding this? The artical didn’t go into much detail, I was speculating as to what I think would be a acceptable reason. > [@](#): > > You know…you’re making this case for no one being “equal” but you seem to be saying all females should be “equal” (and all males I guess) in conforming to one gender standard. For goodness sake, why? If she’s not confortable in a dress why put her in one? No I am not saying that all females are equal, just that there are gender based social customs at this time that are enforced at this school. I don’t think she should be forced to wear the dress. > [@](#): > > She looks adorable in the tux. I agree **Hypotherical Q for all those who are against the schools decision of her wearing the tux** Would you also be against the schools decision not wanting a photo of a a male student (self proclaimed gay or not) wearing the gown to appear in the school yearbook? ---
**Author:** ![lunarnoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@lunarnoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunarnoodle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/100 "2005-02-28T00:48:36Z")
Because there is some cofusion about what exactly the drape is, I googled some images. These are very similar to what my high school offered for our senior photos. This was in Texas in 1993. Some of the photos here are from 1978. The drape hasn’t changed much…at all. [http://homepage.mac.com/johnbramsey/ElLobo78028.jpg](http://homepage.mac.com/johnbramsey/ElLobo78028.jpg) [Random girl with very long url](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.angelfire.com/tn/tifni/moi/senior/SrPortrait1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.angelfire.com/tn/tifni/moi/senior/senior.html&h=400&w=371&sz=10&tbnid=f_LCNU3DpmEJ:&tbnh=120&tbnw=111&start=47&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsenior%2Byearbook%26start%3D40%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN) [http://www.mytexasisland.com/images/SeniorHi.jpg](http://www.mytexasisland.com/images/SeniorHi.jpg) [It will ask for a password. Hit cancel](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jenw_md.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/drape3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jenw_md.tripod.com/fr/&h=736&w=619&sz=143&tbnid=SFWDbiUjifcJ:&tbnh=138&tbnw=116&start=265&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsenior%2Byearbook%26start%3D260%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=6)