# Women in PANTS??? Not in MY yearbook!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039 "2005-02-26T19:36:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/101 "2005-02-28T01:04:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Hypotherical Q for all those who are against the schools decision of her wearing the tux** > > Would you also be against the schools decision not wanting a photo of a a male student (self proclaimed gay or not) wearing the gown to appear in the school yearbook? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/102 "2005-02-28T01:15:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Thing is, most yearbook pictures are from the waist up-I was wearing cut off JEAN shorts in mine, but you’d never know. I’ve never understood the “uniform” senior yearbook photo philosophy. What people wore is a lot of what makes them memorable in photos. Reducing everyone to cookie cutter clones is just lame as hell. My yearbook let you get your photos taken however the hell you wanted as long as you submit the right size and it was taken by a professional. Sitting, standing, face shot or full length, wearing whatever you wanted… at least two people in my class had their cats in their photos. One guy had a bunch of rock climbing gear in his. One person had their HORSE! And you know what? It showed a lot more of their personality than a fucking tux or draped piece of cloth. (It wasn’t until I was 17 that I even knew that other kind existed–when I saw the yearbook of a friend in Florida and was like…wtF?? Why is everyone dressed the same!??) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/103 "2005-02-28T01:31:20Z")
At my school that would certainly have been allowed-the rule was jackets and ties for the males, and for the females nothing sleeveless or too revealing. (In fact, the drape would probably have been “iffy.”) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/104 "2005-02-28T01:38:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Would you also be against the schools decision not wanting a photo of a a male student (self proclaimed gay or not) wearing the gown to appear in the school yearbook? You have ignored the fact that tuxedos for women have long been acceptable as formal wear. You obviously do not understand this, nor do some of the some of the hicks down in Florida such as the principal. As far as men wearing dresses for formal occasions goes, there is nothing new to it. I am astounded that you do not know this. You should get out to some formal balls more often, or failing that, try Googling on kilt or sarong. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/105 "2005-02-28T02:36:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Hypotherical Q for all those who are against the schools decision of her wearing the tux** > > Would you also be against the schools decision not wanting a photo of a a male student (self proclaimed gay or not) wearing the gown to appear in the school yearbook? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/106 "2005-02-28T03:43:55Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > Shouldn’t the school yearbook committee have the final say on it, not the principal? I remember when I was on the school newspaper in HS some dickwad sued us and the yearbook committee for not running abstinence ads (which went against our express and stated policy) and it went up to the SCOTUS and they ruled in our favour. [This](http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/dec97/96-1623.01a.html) is the case. You don’t seem to be named as a defendant in the case, as you weren’t a school official at the time. [Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=484&invol=260) places rather sharp limits on the free expression of hisg school students in publications controlled by the school. > [@](#): > > First Amendment rights of students in the public schools are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings, and must be applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment. A school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school. Pp. 266-267. > > (b) The school newspaper here cannot be characterized as a forum for public expression. School facilities may be deemed to be public forums [484 U.S. 260, 261] only if school authorities have by policy or by practice opened the facilities for indiscriminate use by the general public, or by some segment of the public, such as student organizations. If the facilities have instead been reserved for other intended purposes, communicative or otherwise, then no public forum has been created, and school officials may impose reasonable restrictions on the speech of students, teachers, and other members of the school community. The school officials in this case did not deviate from their policy that the newspaper’s production was to be part of the educational curriculum and a regular classroom activity under the journalism teacher’s control as to almost every aspect of publication. The officials did not evince any intent to open the paper’s pages to indiscriminate use by its student reporters and editors, or by the student body generally. Accordingly, school officials were entitled to regulate the paper’s contents in any reasonable manner. So yes, the principal and other school officials have final say, not the yearbook committee. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/107 "2005-02-28T03:57:47Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > I want to know more about this “gown-like” drape. Sounds like a gownless evening strap. > > I wouldn’t be comfortable putting that on, either, much less posing for a portrait in it. I am surprised that nobody has complained about it before. [This is an example](http://www.crystalimagephoto.com/photos/drape.jpg), but to be honest, that’s the most conservative-looking photo of a girl in a drape that I’ve seen. [Here’s another example](http://www.foxmar.com/LadiesSamplesStandard.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/108 "2005-02-28T04:59:26Z")
> [@Okaybear](#): > > I say we all (those of us who think this is a moronic, discriminatory action) email the pricipal who originally made the decision. > The fact is, it said right in the article that there **is no dress code** for senior pictures. Yes, yes…I realize that being _nude_ or something equally ridiculous is out of the question. But for a gal who just wants to remember her high school experience by expressing herself the way she chooses to (in formal wear, no less), I’d say this is a spiteful and backwards decision by Principal Ward. > > And I’m going to tell him so. > > {edited to remove email address. Lynn} **Okaybear** , please do not try to start email campaigns on this message board. Lynn For the Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/109 "2005-02-28T06:29:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The private school wishes to have a dress code for class pictures which conforms to social customs of the day. **kanicbird** , the Florida school in question is a _public_ one, not private (unless you’re referring to some other school, in which case I’ve misunderstood you and I apologize). If you’ve been under the impression that the school that Kelli Davis attends is private, I can at least see _some_ rationale behind your defence of the Principal. I would still call his actions reprehensible, but private schools can largely set their own agendas. That isn’t the case here, however. [I hope that \*\*Keri Sewell\*\*, the school’s student yearbook editor who was [“fired after refusing her adviser’s order to take the picture out”]([http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus\_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Yearbook%20Tuxedo](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Yearbook%20Tuxedo)), gets something good out of this – such as the offer of an journalism internship somewhere – for refusing to compromise her integrity.] ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/110 "2005-02-28T08:49:45Z")
Looking at those “drapes”, I’d have to say _I_ would have been very uncomfortable wearing one in high school. Clearly you can’t wear a normal bra with them. So if they’re taking pictures during the school day, as it sounds like this school did, would you… Wear a strapless bra to school all day? (And hope it doesn’t slip around or otherwise let you down?) Change into a strapless bra for the photo? (With nothing but a privacy screen between you on one side and your fellow seniors and assorted total strangers on the other?) Or go braless for the photo, adding the discomfort of having your C cups fluttering about unsupported as you get settled to the embarrassment of stripping to the waist in a semi-public location? I’d be very tempted to request the tux shirt, myself. At least I could keep the girls fully covered. Fella bilong missus flodnak looked at the photo of the girl in the tux and pointed out that she’d look utterly unremarkable carrying a violin or a French horn. Orchestras have long required their members to wear formal wear, and not a few now ask all members to wear tuxes, because it makes for a more aesthetically pleasing group. You go to an orchestra concert to enjoy the performance of the unit, after all, not to critique the women’s choice in evening gowns. (Plus, _you_ try playing a cello in an evening gown with your dignity intact.) The classical music world is not exactly known for its avant garde fashion sense, so I count that as a major point in favor of tuxes now being a primarily, but not exclusively, male garment. And frankly, she looks damn cute in it. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/111 "2005-02-28T09:29:25Z")
As it turns out, this isn’t the first time a lesbian student was uncomfortable with wearing the drape (though in the other case it wasn’t the modesty issue, it was gender identity concerns) and ended up having her photo excised from the yearbook, and lo and behold, the [other case was also in Florida](http://www.sptimes.com/2002/01/25/TampaBay/No_drape __no_photo__ l.shtml). 'Apparently to many small minds down there in America’s wang, conformity to an extraordinarily outdated mode of female photographic dress (my mother wore a drape in her senior photo in 1950, for crying out loud!) is more important than the concept that not all females – for reasons of modesty, religious convictions, body image issues or basic sanitary matters (I wouldn’t want to put on the same shirt type thing that other people had been wearing under hot photo lights, would you?) – wish to wear what is essentially a strapless dress/top in a photo which is to mark their first major rite of passage and life milestone for time immemorial. Demand everyone wear a specific color. Demand white button-down blouses for all girls and white button down shirts with a specific color tie for all boys. But demanding that every girl appear strapless and **lie** by saying that it’s tradition (in a new school) and a dress code – though it’s never been codified as such? Not a chance. I’m just sorry that neither of these young women chose to pursue legal remedies because of the time constraints involved in yearbook publishing. These schools need a smackdown, hard and fast. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/112 "2005-02-28T09:57:31Z")
I’m with **flodnak** and **TeaElle**. How on earth do you wear a bra under one of those things? As an extremely prudish teenager, I wouldn’t have been comfortable wearing one. If it’s something you need help getting into, I’m afraid I also wouldn’t have trusted a classmate enough, but I was at the bottom of the social ladder in my school. I wonder if anyone has objected to wearing one of these because of religious reasons, i.e. the top would be immodest dress for a woman and, if so, what the principal’s reaction would have been. CJ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/113 "2005-02-28T14:36:22Z")
One may hope that karma comes back to Superintendent Owens and bites him in his tight undies: Ms. Davis, with her good grades, is probably in the running to be Valedictorian. Hilarity may yet ensue. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/114 "2005-02-28T14:53:14Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > I’m just sorry that neither of these young women chose to pursue legal remedies because of the time constraints involved in yearbook publishing. These schools need a smackdown, hard and fast. Given the precedent I quoted above, what legal remedy do you think would have been available to the girl? ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/115 "2005-02-28T15:13:27Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > Sheesh. I am so glad to be out of Florida. I’d just like to point out that FCM isn’t the only intelligent, reasonable person to ever live in Florida. There are a lot of us down here. Just because the assholes make the news doesn’t mean they’re the majority of people here. [Bartles & James Guys]Thank you for your support.[/B&JG] ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/116 "2005-02-28T15:16:13Z")
**flodnak** and **Siege** , I don’t know about other people but I just pulled down my bra straps and hid them. It might have been a problem for more busty people–I didn’t know what we were wearing until I got there. It does require some help to tie and adjust, which was embarrassing. I’m not used to have my clothes jerked around by random irate women. But next to that picture is a picture of me as a kid, having peed my pants, which surely makes up for the loss of individualism. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/117 "2005-02-28T15:17:06Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > Apparently to many small minds down there in America’s wang, \ Ouch. Thanks, TeaElle, that hurt. Can we please remember, folks, that Floridians haven’t cornered the market on assholishness, and remember also that there are small-minded people everywhere? Have a look at the headlines in some other states occasionally, hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/118 "2005-02-28T17:21:34Z")
Hi, I’m one of the sane Floridians. I just thought I’d try to answer some of the drape questions. I graduated over 15 years ago and my senior picture was taken in a drape. The drapes were pieces of velvet-like material with a scalloped upper edge. They were wrapped around your chest and upper arms so that it appeared you were wearing an off-the-shoulder dress with sleeves. They fastened with a bit of Velcro. They sat high enough that no cleavage could have been seen and we were able to wear our bras with the straps pushed down out of sight. And yes, we were also loaned some lovely plastic pearls. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/119 "2005-02-28T17:56:32Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > My yearbook let you get your photos taken however the hell you wanted as long as you submit the right size and it was taken by a professional. Hey, that’s even more strict than my senior photos. The rule: submit a photo. Yeah, that’s it. Obviously, things thast could be deemed inappropriate were not allowed. The general rule was if it was against the school dress code (which, BTW, was a pretty damn loose one) then it was OK. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/120 "2005-02-28T18:09:28Z")
You know, what if this had been a conservative Christian girl who considered the drape immodest? (There would be many that probably would!) And how the hell would you wear one of those-do they have sleeves, or are they just little capelets that sit on your shoulders? Can you even move your arms without exposing yourself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=7)