# Women in PANTS??? Not in MY yearbook!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039 "2005-02-26T19:36:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/121 "2005-02-28T18:36:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > As far as men wearing dresses for formal occasions goes, there is nothing new to it. I am astounded that you do not know this. You should get out to some formal balls more often, or failing that, try Googling on kilt or sarong. I’s a keelt, damnit, nae a dress, ya wee **Muffin**. 😃 They may take away our senior pictures…but they’ll never take _ **our freedom!** _ Stranger ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/122 "2005-02-28T21:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > kanicbird, the Florida school in question is a public one, not private (unless you’re referring to some other school, in which case I’ve misunderstood you and I apologize). I thought I read it was a private school. I do have more of a problem w/ it since it was a public school. But then again if the rules are your picture can go in the yearbook if you wear the costume assigned to you, and you don’t wear the proper one, I still will have to decide with the school. If this happened after the fact, meaning if the yearbook rule came about after the photos were taken then I would tend to side with her. We are missing much of the story to really tell. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/123 "2005-02-28T23:11:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Given the precedent I quoted above, what legal remedy do you think would have been available to the girl? A case for gender discrimination. This has nothing to do with student vs. administrative control over content of student publications, this has everything to do with administration citing disproven and wholly false reasons for disallowing a perfectly legal, perfectly modest, perfectly appropriate clothing choice to this student based solely upon her gender. You want to suggest that your precedent would disallow an action on those grounds? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/124 "2005-03-01T00:09:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I thought I read it was a private school. I do have more of a problem w/ it since it was a public school. But then again if the rules are your picture can go in the yearbook if you wear the costume assigned to you, and you don’t wear the proper one, I still will have to decide with the school. And if the rules were that she had to bare one breast or wear a clown suit or a joke arrow-through-the-head, would you still side with the school? Granted these are extreme examples but the principle still stands. She was expected to wear a garment which made her feel uncomfortable, and rather than feel uncomfortable she chose the only other garment offered. Then after the fact she’s told she can’t be included because she didn’t wear the garment that was forced upon her for no reason other than sex stereotypes (tuxes for boys, “gowns” for girls), based on “tradition” that didn’t exist at the time the photos were taken. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/125 "2005-03-01T01:47:42Z")
And, boy, is she cute in that tux! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/126 "2005-03-01T05:53:07Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I’s a keelt, damnit, nae a dress, ya wee **Muffin**. 😃 > > They may take away our senior pictures…but they’ll never take _ **our freedom!** _ > > Stranger Nae _a_ dress, but ‘tis _the_ full military ceremonial dress for many here in Canada. Men fight better wi’ tha balls flappin’ in the breeze, doan ye ken? ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/127 "2005-03-01T06:08:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You know, what if this had been a conservative Christian girl who considered the drape immodest? (There would be many that probably would!) > And how the hell would you wear one of those-do they have sleeves, or are they just little capelets that sit on your shoulders? Can you even move your arms without exposing yourself? It’s basically just a piece of fabric. The one I wore in my graduation pictures held together with Velcro in the back. It did not have sleeves or ties that I recall. I had to pull my bra straps down my arms so they would not be seen. The photographer didn’t provide any pearls or anything. I wore my silver chain with a large initial charm on it to adorn the vast expanse of chest (but not cleavage) the drape showed. I didn’t like wearing it but I was too much of a wuss to make any protest. I just wanted to get done and put my dress-up outfit, or the cap and gown, on for the other photos. The drape photos were the only ones the girls were permitted to have included as their graduation photos in the yearbook. I am 26, and until I read this thread, I didn’t know that graduation dress was different at other schools. My mom and her sisters wore snazzy feather boa things in their graduation pictures. I agree that the girl in question looks great in the tux. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/128 "2005-03-01T13:51:33Z")
> [@](#): > > And if the rules were that she had to bare one breast or wear a clown suit or a joke arrow-through-the-head, would you still side with the school? Granted these are extreme examples but the principle still stands. She was expected to wear a garment which made her feel uncomfortable, Then you missed my post before. The options I see is 1- wear what is provided and get your pict in the yearbook, or 2- opt out of the entire thing. In no way should she be forced to wear anything. I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, but perhaps not enough to bar the photo - again it all comes down to the details we don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/129 "2005-03-01T15:06:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, Huh? What does her wearing the tux have to do with the other girls? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/130 "2005-03-01T15:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Then you missed my post before. The options I see is 1- wear what is provided and get your pict in the yearbook, or 2- opt out of the entire thing. In no way should she be forced to wear anything. [quote] But she did wear what was provided. The princpal seemed to have objected to the fact that she picked the “wrong” piece of apparel, but approximately half the class was wearing it, so it’s isn’t really clear what was wrong about it…other than that it offended the gentlem^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hman’s sensibilities. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, but perhaps not enough to bar the photo - again it all comes down to the details we don’t have. In what possible way could her actions be construed as “an insult to the other girls”? That she didn’t conform to the expected norm? That she didn’t want to play Barbies? That’s she’d be labeled “box office poison”? Gah. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/131 "2005-03-01T15:35:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Then you missed my post before. The options I see is 1- wear what is provided and get your pict in the yearbook, or 2- opt out of the entire thing. In no way should she be forced to wear anything. > > I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, but perhaps not enough to bar the photo - again it all comes down to the details we don’t have. You really are a fucking moron, aren’t you? HOW does that “insult” her fellow female students? ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/132 "2005-03-01T18:44:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Then you missed my post before. The options I see is 1- wear what is provided and get your pict in the yearbook, or 2- opt out of the entire thing. In no way should she be forced to wear anything. > > I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, but perhaps not enough to bar the photo - again it all comes down to the details we don’t have. First off, I don’t see where Otto said that you said (oy vey this is getting complicated) she should be forced to wear anythng. Just that she shouldn’t be _penalized_ for not wanting to wear something she was uncomfotable in. Secondly, I could begin to understand you view that “these are the rules for participating, follow them or don’t participate”. Understand if not agree with. But…it’s an insult to other girls??? You’ve lost me again. Why? How is it an insult to anyone else to wear what you’re comfortable in? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/133 "2005-03-01T20:48:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Then you missed my post before. The options I see is 1- wear what is provided and get your pict in the yearbook, or 2- opt out of the entire thing. In no way should she be forced to wear anything. Do you not see that “wear what we say or don’t participate” is force? Is anyone holding her down and Velcro-ing her into the drape? No. Does the pulling of her picture from the book for not wearing the drape constitute force on the part of the principal? Absolutely. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I still feel that her actions were an insult to the other girls, but perhaps not enough to bar the photo - again it all comes down to the details we don’t have. There you go raising that bar again. An insult to the other girls? As near as I can tell, the decisions made by any other girl were not a factor in Kelli’s decision-making process. She wasn’t saying the other girls were wrong or stupid for wearing the drape; she was saying that she herself was uncomfortable wearing it. She should not be forced to wear something which makes her expose herself to a degree which makes her uncomfortable, and that’s what denying her the opportunity to appear with the rest of her class in the senior section of the yearbook effectively does. I hope the yearbook staff puts a big black box in the middle of the page where her photo should have been. Or better yet, refers readers to the ad the family bought to get the photo in the book. Which raises another question, if the photo is so terrible that it can’t appear with the class why is it acceptable when the family is shelling out $700 for an ad? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/134 "2005-03-01T20:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > . Just that she shouldn’t be penalized for not wanting to wear something she was uncomfotable in. I assume that you too have a problem with the word ‘penalized’, which I assume it because you know that not granting a privilege is not a penalty. She was not penalized for wearing the incorrect costume, she just was not granted the privilege of being in the yearbook. > [@](#): > > But…it’s an insult to other girls??? You’ve lost me again. Why? How is it an insult to anyone else to wear what you’re comfortable in? You and others see this much differently then I do. I see her as rejecting the female costume in favor of the male one as a direct insult to all women who appreciate the differences between men and women, and feel that men and women are different and that the difference is a wonderful thing (this is why I did mention about gender mis-identity, as if ‘she’ was really a he in a girls body, I could understand ‘his’ actions). I really don’t know if this applies to what happened, again we don’t have all the info. If she did it to make a statement, I take it as an insult to women. If she did it for modesty, I take it as acceptable. If she knew her actions would mean no yearbook photo, I side with the school. If she didn’t know, I side with her. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/135 "2005-03-01T21:54:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I see her as rejecting the female costume in favor of the male one as a direct insult to all women who appreciate the differences between men and women, and feel that men and women are different and that the difference is a wonderful thing (this is why I did mention about gender mis-identity, as if ‘she’ was really a he in a girls body, I could understand ‘his’ actions). Your idiocy is apparently complete, and completely uncorrectable. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/136 "2005-03-01T22:35:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You and others see this much differently then I do. I see her as rejecting the female costume in favor of the male one as a direct insult to all women who appreciate the differences between men and women, and feel that men and women are different and that the difference is a wonderful thing (this is why I did mention about gender mis-identity, as if ‘she’ was really a he in a girls body, I could understand ‘his’ actions). As a card carrying female, I don’t see how a drape is a female costume, or a tux is a male costume. I’ve never seen a female wear a one-size-fits-all black scalloped tube that requires assistance to put on, in public. I have seen females wearing tuxedos (see the multiple examples above). Do you actually feel personally insulted every time you see a woman in a pair of pants? If so, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. But I’m still not sorry for wearing pants and a hockey jersey. Hmm, where do graduation gowns fall on the scale of female-to-male costumes these days? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/137 "2005-03-01T22:43:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I assume that you too have a problem with the word ‘penalized’, which I assume it because you know that not granting a privilege is not a penalty. She was not penalized for wearing the incorrect costume, she just was not granted the privilege of being in the yearbook. Next you’ll be saying that they gave her the “freedom” from having to make a choice about what to wear. :rolleyes: > [@kanicbird](#): > > You and others see this much differently then I do. I see her as rejecting the female costume in favor of the male one **as a direct insult to all women who appreciate the differences between men and women** , and feel that men and women are different and that the difference is a wonderful thing (this is why I did mention about gender mis-identity, as if ‘she’ was really a he in a girls body, I could understand ‘his’ actions). But her celebrating her difference _as an individual_, regardless of plumbing, is inacceptible? You seem to clutching for some kind of statement that is not there. Nowhere in any of the links provided has it been suggested that she is “anti-straight” or “anti-female” or that in any way she seeks to destroy gender differences, or whatever else it is you are taking offense at. It seems to me that you are taking upset by the fact that this young lady didn’t fall in line and wear the right thing at the right time in the right way, and thus, should be punished–sorry, \*\*not granted the privilege–by being excluded from an acknowledgement that was permitted every other student in the school. Ah, well. As Roger says, “In ten years, you won’t even remember what this place looks like.” And Principal Dumbkopff will still be there, the king frog in his little pond. High school…where the adults often act even less mature than the children. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/138 "2005-03-02T00:03:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I see her as rejecting the female costume in favor of the male one as a direct insult to all women who appreciate the differences between men and women, and feel that men and women are different and that the difference is a wonderful thing (this is why I did mention about gender mis-identity, as if ‘she’ was really a he in a girls body, I could understand ‘his’ actions). This statement is quite literally the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen on this message board. It is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever on any message board. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/139 "2005-03-02T00:15:08Z")
I agree **Otto** , and I am now more stupider for reading it. Most of **kanicbird** ’s post in this thread are sheer and utter lunacy. [sub]I wonder what color the sky is in her world?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039/140 "2005-03-02T00:35:02Z")
A direct insult to other girls? Girls wear pants (and tuxes) all the time and I’ve never heard another woman say they were insulted by it. Does anyone think that this would have been a big deal if the principal hadn’t stepped in and banned her photo? I can’t imagine anyone in my high school would have cared about something so insignificant (maybe if she’d worn something really wild, but she didn’t). Most likely, a few students would have said something like “oh, look at Kelli’s photo–that’s so _her_” and gone on with getting signatures and moaning abouy how they had a monster zit in their own photo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-in-pants-not-in-my-yearbook/292039.md?page=8)