Dave Chappelle had a funny bit about scantily-clad women that went something like this:
“Women’ll say ‘Hold it right there! Just because I’m dressed this way does not make me a whore!’ And they’re right. They’re absolutely right. But that shit’s fucking confusing. Imagine running up to someone dressed like a cop and screaming ‘Officer! Officer! Thank God- they ran that way!’ ‘Hold it! HOLD it! Just because I’m dressed this way… does not make me a police officer!’ So ladies, you’re right, just because you’re dressed a certain way does not make you a whore. But you are wearing a whore’s uniform.”
Looking back at that joke, it isn’t really the point I’m trying to make but I just typed it all up and I’m not deleting it now.
If a woman is raped and I learn that she was dressed scantily (however you want to define that), I don’t think “well that’ll teach her not to walk around at night dressed like that”. But if you’re dressed in sexually provocative clothing then yes, you should expect people to come on to you. I’m sort of confused that you don’t think you should expect people to hit on you if you’re dressed sexily. It’s like going to a convention dressed like Leia and being bewildered when people want to take pictures with you.
All that being said, I looked at the pic provided (btw, just to show what a pig I am- her ass was perfect in those jeans) and I don’t think she was dressed provocatively at all. She called it casual and I’d agree with that. I wasn’t there so I don’t know how bad their catcalling was- it could have been harmless- but I’m willing to bet that the media folks that were there had reason to feel uncomfortable (I mean, in one of the links it talked about how it wasn’t just the reporter who was feeling the vibe).
But again, what is sexual and what isn’t? Is a tank top sexual? Or a sun dress that’s somewhat low cut with spaghetti straps? No one’s ever been able to answer that.
I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to hit on people. I do think that in some settings, like a professional or workplace one, even if you find my outfit attractive or you think it’s revealing, it’s not the proper thing. But there’s not really a strong line between “totally professional” and “totally sexy.” I mean, I have a nice body and I’m pretty young, so even though I don’t think I ever dress like a whore, I usually look good. If I’m not in the mood to be hit on or talked to, it’s not as though I feel I need to put on a baggy sweatshirt to turn off other people’s minds.
You’re the one who said “any woman who dresses scantily” which in my mind implied outfits that were unquestionably sexual. If you’re wearing a tube top and a mini skirt you should expect people to hit on you, yes. I didn’t say that makes inappropriate behavior OK. It transfers 0% of the responsibility for that behavior to the woman. Men should act like adults and be fully responsible for their own behavior. But the woman should expect it, yes.
Going to see the new Affleck movie atm so I’ll respond to the second bit of your post when I get back.
I don’t expect any real professionalism from football players. That’s right, I said it. These guys aren’t working in an office somewhere. These are guys that [del]do dances after every touchdown[/del] [del]celebrate respectfully[/del] beat the crap out of each other for a living. It’s like yelling at construction workers for whistling at women that walk by; “Hey! Hey you! You’re all being unprofessional!” I mean, yeah, it’s true, but again, it’s what I expect.
And as a big fat disclaimer on all of that, just to repeat myself, I’m not condoning whatever it is in particular that they did. A room full of people were feeling uncomfortable so these guys clearly took it too fucking far. But flirting and catcalling on the job in and of itself isn’t out of what I’d consider out of the ordinary for these guys. The only reason I even felt the need to comment was because you disagreed with the idea that if you’re a woman and you dress scantily you should expect to be hit on. Which I think you should.
But it is these men’s workplace, and their employer does play a role in this - it is the coaches and owners who make players available to the press. They are professional athletes, and that entails the job on the field and gym/training as well as meeting with the press in the locker room (which is, as I said, not a locker room like you’d find in a typical gym, AFAIK, but rather an adjoining room). This is part of their job, it is in their contract, they have a code of conduct and an obligation to represent the team in a good light. They know that there will be female reporters in there, they were born and raised in a modern society and it is their obligation to act in a socially acceptable manner while performing the duties of their job.
Ms. Sainz might have been used to a certain level of flirtation and sexuality as part of her job, and maybe even invites it for ratings and fun, but if many of the other reporters in the room - men and women - were feeling profoundly uncomfortable with the situation, then it went too far.
But that doesn’t make it OK, and the fact is these players know this since female reporters and other staff have been a part of professional sports for a long time now, and I’m sure they must have sensitivity training and all kinds of contract clauses regarding professionalism and how to represent their team. They don’t get a free pass because they are athletes.
It is not acceptable to sexually harass someone, even in a locker room, and there is really no excuse to justify it. It is inappropriate and wrong and should not be tolerated.
It would be more accurate to say the league makes them available. I think we have to grant that a locker room is a much more casual environment than an office, but it’s explicitly a workplace for players and (at designated times) the press.
I call bullshit on the idea that it works the same way for male reporters in female locker rooms. Just the fact that men can go into female locker rooms doesn’t mean it is the same.
I’ve read conflicting accounts, one saying that all female athletes are allowed to shower and dress before the reporters can come in, and another saying that the reporters are allowed in for a short time immediately after the game and the interviews are conducted with the athletes still in uniform, then all the reporters leave so the athletes can shower and change.
I don’t know which standard is used, but I would bet good money one of them is. And neither is equivalent to the female reporters’ access to male locker rooms, so to reiterate I call bullshit on this false equivalence until I see a much better cite than “yes they’re allowed in.”
Also, I call bullshit on women’s entitlement issues. You don’t get to choose how men react to you. Meaning, if you want to dress cute or sexy or whatever, you don’t get to say that men aren’t allowed to hit on you. You’re certainly within your rights to complain to HR if, say, a coworker asks you out for drinks when you show a lot of cleavage or wear a skimpy sundress, but you should know that that’s a total dick move.
And a resounding bullshit on the idea that Inez’s clothes were professional. I defy you to link any picture to any other female sports reporter with clothes that provocative.
Found a cite from Michelle Kaufman of the Miami Herald that the WNBA access is different than how it works for male sports: (The white response-box on the right.)
When I first read that “men are allowed into women’s locker rooms,” it immediately triggered my bullshit detector. I wonder why everyone else thought that of course male reporters got to interview naked female athletes in the name of equality? The very idea just doesn’t pass the smell test, and shame on you for so eagerly swallowing that piece of PC fiction.
Before you say that male athletes aren’t naked during interviews, read Jason Whitlock’s article (instead of just Michelle Kaufman’s response) linked above. He recounts several anecdotes of exactly that.
To complete the dreaded triple-post, why can’t teams bar female reporters from locker rooms? How is that different from Curves not allowing men in their gyms or the LPGA only allowing women to compete? (Or all women’s sports, for that matter, which bar men. Men’s sports as a rule allow women to compete if they want and are able.)
I’m not asking this philosophically. I mean, what would the difference be in the legal particulars between a female reporter’s discrimination suit from being barred from the locker room and, say, an average Joe’s discrimination suit against Curves, or a male pro golfer’s suit against the LPGA?
These female reporters aren’t trying to join the football team. They’re reporting. As has already been said in this thread, male reporters are allowed in the female locker rooms of womens teams.
Plenty of big stories have broken in the locker room. Remember when McGwire talked about the steroids he had in his locker ? That story became huge. There are many others because they often are more honest in the heat right after a game.
It is ridiculous to have reporters in the locker room before players have a chance to shower and dress.
Players should still be professional and courteous while reporters barge in on them naked, but it isn’t a good situation. It is also absurd to believe that the same thing would be done to female athletes.
I believe the flirting, wolf whistling and so forth in both examples doesn’t merely have to do with the sexiness of the female, how slutty she dresses or whatnot.
To a large extent it’s also an insecure macho thing, a sort of unspoken “I’m not gay. Are you gay ? Then hassle the femme, why don’t you ?” if you will. It’s something that comes up quite a bit in settings where large groups of males work together as a tight-ish unit and see nothing but each other a whole lot (e.g. teen gangs or the military). In that context, they don’t really care what the object of their being offensive thinks or feels, nor do they expect her to return the attention at all : it’s all about reinforcing the bond between them and the guys.
Of course, you could also chalk it up to being a group thing period - after all, the IQ of a mob is equal to the brainpower of its weakest link divided by the number of people in the group ;).
Is it offensive ? I don’t know, really. It’s certainly annoying and embarrassing to anyone around. But I think one shouldn’t take it personally.
The only problem with that is that the attention of a large group of males who are viewing her not as a human being but as an object can be threatening to a lone woman or a small group of women who are significantly outnumbered. Wolf whistles and comments are one end of the spectrum, gang rapes lie at the other.
However, I don’t think that’s what was happening in the incident referred to, or at least, not exactly what happened.
These guys aren’t working in an office somewhere. These are guys that [del]do dances after every touchdown[/del] [del]celebrate respectfully[/del] beat the crap out of each other for a living. It’s like yelling at construction workers for whistling at women that walk by; “Hey! Hey you! You’re all being unprofessional!” I mean, yeah, it’s true, but again, it’s what I expect.