# "Women know men better than men know women" - true? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 11, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861 "2021-05-11T19:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/161 "2021-05-18T21:13:42Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Women don’t have to understand men particularly well to know more about them than men know women. If we ascribe some arbitrary score, men could understand women 20% and women could understand men 40%. Nobody is asserting 90% understanding or anything. True, but it’s a pretty low bar to know if someone will beat the shit out of you and rape you. And even lower when you take them back time after time when they say they are sorry and it will never happen again. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > What I see come up over and over again is that women often have a difficult time accepting that their partner will not change. I think this is a big thing for a lot of women. If you have to change your partner, man or woman, in order for them to be a better fit for you, you may as well break it off now because it’s probably not going to work. And absolutely do not get married, hoping he will change. It reminds me a bit of the olden days when the husband expected his wife to stop working when they got married and then got pissed because she liked working and wasn’t going to quit. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/162 "2021-05-18T22:06:21Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > True, but it’s a pretty low bar to know if someone will beat the shit out of you and rape you. It’s not, really. People you trust can violate that trust and it’s not because you did something wrong, it’s because not everybody who appears trustworthy is actually trustworthy. We’ve all made that mistake at some point haven’t we? Some learn it more violently than others. I work for a domestic violence and sexual assault services agency. Violence in relationships can take many forms, but you seem to be talking about the cycle of abuse. When victims get into an abusive relationship, the abuser is often charming, sweet, doting, etc. They fall in love, they get married or move in together. They have children. Then the abuser slowly changes. Little comments that undermine the victim’s confidence. A little more financial control. S/he starts planting seeds of doubt about the victim’s loved ones. S/he expects the victim not to work outside the home. It’s subtle. But because it is a pattern of power and control, the victim slowly grows in dependence on the abuser and slowly loses their self - confidence. Only once the victim has lost their friends, family, personal autonomy, sense of self - worth, financial control, sexual agency, you name it does the violence escalate. Thus it’s better to conceptualize domestic violence as a multi - faceted pattern of power and control that includes but is not limited to physical force. This is all completely intentional on the abuser’s part. They wouldn’t slap a first date. It’s not obvious. There are a lot of reasons women don’t leave abusive relationships… I believe the statistical average is nine times before they break free. That reason is often financial dependence, threats to their children or loved ones, a deeply cultivated belief that they are worthless without their abuser, and dare I say it, love. Because abusers are not abusers 24/7. They can be that same sweet, loving, doting person 95% of the time and complete monsters the other 5%. It’s wrenching to lose someone you love even when that person hurts you. The picture is a lot more complex than having poor judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/163 "2021-05-18T22:30:43Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > If women know men so well, why do so many women have a history of getting into bad relationships? Men that belittle them, beat them, rape them, abuse the kids, and many other things. Yet many women fall for these guys, go back to them after breaking up, go back after a divorce, get back together when they have a restraining order. If they have men so figured out, many don’t seem to be making use of that knowledge. People get into bad relationships because they feel familiar and “the way relationships are supposed to feel”. And their models are the bad relationships they experienced and/or observed as children. It has nothing to do with knowledge per se. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/164 "2021-05-18T23:51:27Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > The picture is a lot more complex than having poor judgment. Very well said, thank you. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > People get into bad relationships because they feel familiar and “the way relationships are supposed to feel”. And their models are the bad relationships they experienced and/or observed as children. It has nothing to do with knowledge per se. Boy, howdy! You got that right. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/165 "2021-05-19T19:42:33Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > You forgot to add poorly to this statement. Attention, women! Even if you are a multiple gold medalist or world champion in a women’s sport, it don’t mean shit since you are still crap compared to men. Remember this. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/166 "2021-05-20T05:17:36Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > People you trust can violate that trust and it’s not because you did something wrong, it’s because not everybody who appears trustworthy is actually trustworthy. Also, a lot of abusers are really, really skilled at manipulating and deceiving other people. If you’ve never fallen for a relationship con job from an abuser who was smart, unscrupulous, and really invested in conning you, it’s probably due more to your good luck than your good judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/167 "2021-05-20T05:27:02Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I think it’s more that people are watching a sport, and they want to watch the best version of that sport. Yeah, but again in context that’s irrelevant. We’re not talking about sports fans, we’re talking about people in personal relationships. Parents don’t typically refuse to go watch their kid playing on on the JV football team because hey, JV football sucks. They go (if they do) to support their kid. Similarly if I had a girlfriend playing on, say, an awful HS girl’s swim team (I have never found swim meets interesting to watch on any level), I’d go at least occasionally to be supportive. Not because I gave even a single shit about watching the competition, but just because I wanted to be a good boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/168 "2021-05-20T05:36:33Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Similarly if I had a girlfriend playing on, say, an awful HS girl’s swim team (I have never found swim meets interesting to watch on any level), I’d go at least occasionally to be supportive. Not because I gave even a single shit about watching the competition, but just because I wanted to be a good boyfriend. I think it’s worth mentioning again Cartooniverse’s description in post #108 of his experience in this regard when he went to his HS girlfriend’s softball games to be a supportive boyfriend. Namely, the other guys hassled him for it. It’s not just that he wasn’t generally expected to go to her games, he got explicitly picked on for choosing to go. Because it’s somehow insufficiently manly for guys to be passive spectators while girls are doing the work of athletic competition. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/169 "2021-05-20T14:57:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Also, a lot of abusers are really, really skilled at manipulating and deceiving other people. If you’ve never fallen for a relationship con job from an abuser who was smart, unscrupulous, and really invested in conning you, it’s probably due more to your good luck than your good judgement. Also, it’s pretty easy to be convinced that you have to put up with that shit or else you’ll wind up Alone, and it’s utterly terrible to wind up Alone. Because it’s not only the abuser telling the victim that. It’s large segments of the society as a whole telling people – women in particular – that of course they have to compromise, of course they have to please the other person, of course they have to change their lives and their relationships with other people, that’s just what being partnered is and You Must Have A Partner. They don’t usually tell you that you have to get beaten up; though some social groups will. But they’ll tell you to put up with every other step that gets you to that point – and some will then say, but they’re sorry, give them another chance! And some abuse, of course, never does turn into physically visible damage. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/170 "2021-05-21T20:23:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > When victims get into an abusive relationship, the abuser is often charming, sweet, doting, etc. They fall in love, they get married or move in together. They have children. Then the abuser slowly changes. Do you believe there are a bunch of abusive men out there that will plot out a subtle course of action that takes years to play out? Or is it more likely that the women grew up in an abusive environment so they choose the same kind of man that mom did? Not to mention all the friends, family and coworkers that told her to stay away from that guy, but no, she loves him and she can get him to change. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > And their models are the bad relationships they experienced and/or observed as children. It has nothing to do with knowledge per se. But that’s what we are talking about, women knowing men better. And experience is knowledge. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Also, a lot of abusers are really, really skilled at manipulating and deceiving other people. If you’ve never fallen for a relationship con job from an abuser who was smart, unscrupulous, and really invested in conning you, it’s probably due more to your good luck than your good judgement. ?What description of con are you using? Cheating on your spouse is not a con, it’s cheating. Abusing your spouse is not a con, it’s domestic violence. A con means there is a plan ahead of time, with a planned outcome. I find it hard to believe that there are tons of men who think " Boy, I’ll date this girl for a year, marry her, get her pregnant a few times so five years down the road we’ll have three kids, then I can start beating her." This is a real hijack of the thread so I just want to make my point clear and back on topic. I don’t think women know men better than men know women, even in a general sense. I also don’t think men know women better than women know men. I don’t even know how you could test for that. I think some people know other people better, some don’t have a fucking clue about other people, and the vast majority are mixed up somewhere in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/171 "2021-05-21T21:02:35Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > This is a real hijack of the thread so I just want to make my point clear and back on topic. I don’t think women know men better than men know women, even in a general sense. I also don’t think men know women better than women know men. I don’t even know how you could test for that. > I think some people know other people better, some don’t have a fucking clue about other people, and the vast majority are mixed up somewhere in the middle. Your post leads me to the conclusion that you have never been in an abusive relationship or observed one. People can know something and still be unable to make decisions based on that knowledge. It’s extraordinarily common. Doesn’t mean they don’t know. It means there is some greater force than knowledge at work. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/172 "2021-05-21T21:37:33Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Abusing your spouse is not a con, it’s domestic violence. A con means there is a plan ahead of time, with a planned outcome. I find it hard to believe that there are tons of men who think " Boy, I’ll date this girl for a year, marry her, get her pregnant a few times so five years down the road we’ll have three kids, then I can start beating her." It doesn’t have to take years, but it does take time. Abusers have a certain outcome in mind, but it isn’t beating. The beating is a means to an end. What the abuser wants is power and control. They know they can’t just have it overnight, which is why the behavior escalates as the power and control becomes more absolute. Yes, many abusers are absolutely intentional about isolating victims and making them dependent on the abuser. Anyone who has spent a meaningful amount of time trying to reform convicted DV offenders could tell you this. There is absolutely a factor of victims being habituated to abuse by what played out in their childhood. But I couldn’t tell you why some people escape the cycle and others don’t. I was with a guy three months as a teen who started getting abusive, and the first time it happened I informed him if it ever happened again I would leave him. It happened again, so I left him. But he was just a baby batterer. He was still learning how to be abusive and he had no meaningful control over my life when he strangled me. He had started the process of isolating me from me friends but he was only just beginning when he started getting violent, so I had a soft cushion to land on. I’m sure he learned something from that experience. As did I - I permanently lost a friend. It still smarts. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2021, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/173 "2021-05-22T06:22:27Z")
I remember reading something sometime about Clinton’s affair and the tapes that Linda Tripp made of her conversations with Lewinsky. I was in Japan at the time wasn’t reading that much detailed news about America, but someone wrote that men were surprised at how much the two discussed the relationship. I’ve talked to women who say both that they discuss their love relationships in depth with friends and others who say they don’t, so like everything else, I presume this depends on the individual, but are women more likely? How common is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/174 "2021-05-24T22:57:45Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’ve talked to women who say both that they discuss their love relationships in depth with friends and others who say they don’t, so like everything else, I presume this depends on the individual, but are women more likely? How common is it? It is extremely common, in my experience, for women to discuss their relationships, sexual and otherwise, with their close women friends. If my own experience is any guide, it is a main topic if not THE main topic of conversation between close friends. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861/175 "2021-05-25T03:01:27Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > It is extremely common, in my experience, for women to discuss their relationships, sexual and otherwise, with their close women friends. If my own experience is any guide, it is a main topic if not THE main topic of conversation between close friends. I see. I had an online friend before and as we became better friends, then that was all she wanted to talk about. She wanted to dissect .every.single.interaction. with some guy who just seemed like a flake to me. It just wasn’t interesting for me and eventually that friendship didn’t work out. The reason I thought about her after reading this thread was despite all that attention to the details, she was missing the forest for the trees. The guy was just a flake. I don’t know if most(?) or many(?) women “know men” better than men know women when it comes to relationships, because it seems to be that many people don’t do particularly well at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-know-men-better-than-men-know-women-true/941861.md?page=8)