# Women loosing attractiveness: unfair **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949 "2006-05-01T13:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/41 "2006-05-03T10:19:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I remember THAT unfortunate truth from high school, when several of my geeky and frankly not bad looking but less than model perfect girlfriends had crushes on geeky and less than perfect guys (sounds like the same guys thirty years younger, down to the bad skin and lacking in subtlety). And they, in some sort of misplaced huburis, felt that they should be dating the perfectly groomed cheerleader. And then they’d whine about “nice guys” not getting dates. > > (thank god for oxytocin and a husband, I think I’d stay single rather than enter that dysfunctional mess again!) Heh. Whereas I was the nice guy who didn’t even get come-ons from geeky and frankly not bad looking but less than model perfect girls. (I didn’t _know_ any perfectly groomed cheerleaders that I felt I should be dating, fwiw.) Of course, it’s possible that I was a troll, but the ageing B&W of sixteen-year-old me dressed as Strephon sorta contradicts me, and I speak as one who hates photos of himself. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/42 "2006-05-03T11:31:14Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > Then again, it all depends on how you feel about guys with pierced bellybuttons. It’s fine with me. A navel ring is my third favorite place to tie a lead string. > [@FaerieBeth](#): > > I try, occasionally, to remember that just because I wouldn’t want to know a person in the biblical sense doesn’t mean that someone, somewhere wouldn’t. Less choice, maybe. Discrimination, not so much. Exactly. I can’t think of anyone who is \*universally \* considered attractive or unattractive. I know a guy who thinks that Angelina Jolie is hideous, and has a thing for [Clea DuVall](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0245112/). I’m not denying that the Hollywood-dictated standard of attractiveness exists, or that a lot of people do internalize it, but for the most part real people, who live their lives surrounded by other real people, have their own ideas of beauty. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/43 "2006-05-03T12:38:05Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > No restrictions on murder of non family members and non group members could be what he meant. I doubt there is a culture where you can murder your parents and the tribal cheif or the guy who fetches water from the stream at will. Those were some of my immediate objections, yes. Even so, I’d still like to see some evidence for this rather grandiose claim. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/44 "2006-05-03T13:44:30Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > It’s fine with me. A navel ring is my third favorite place to tie a lead string. Cute retort. I’ll figure out how to bill you for my time, then I’ll respond accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/45 "2006-05-03T14:30:25Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > That’s kind of a specific title for the macro-phenomenon of men centering their attention exclusively to women completely out of their leauge. There’s a difference between lusting after women who are out of your league and feeling that you are ENTITLED to the finest of women. Besides, women do the same thing. I knew plenty of girls who centered their attention on guys who wanted nothing to do with them. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/46 "2006-05-03T19:51:42Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > It’s evolution. Women are designed You can vote for one or the other. Evolution _or_ design. Not both. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/47 "2006-05-03T21:30:21Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I’m not denying that the Hollywood-dictated standard of attractiveness exists, or that a lot of people do internalize it, but for the most part real people, who live their lives surrounded by other real people, have their own ideas of beauty. I know I’ve read somewhere that because of Hollywood and the amount of TV, Movies, we spend enough face time with that top 1% that our version of “average” is severely skewed. So while we go about in real life spotting people (for seconds or minutes) who range in the attractiveness scale, many of us then go home and stare at the high end of the scale for 2-3 hours straight. They begin to look “average” and the real life average people begin to look very much less than. ---
**Author:** ![mjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/48 "2006-05-03T21:30:30Z")
If not for sexuality, women would have no negotiable assets. If humans reproduced asexually, and sexual attractiveness didn’t exist, 90 percent of women would be utterly worthless to the world. Unless, of course, the world desperately needed legions of bimbos who dress, talk, act, think and sound alike. Like, how do they tell themselves, like, apart? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/49 "2006-05-03T22:02:36Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > You can vote for one or the other. Evolution _or_ design. Not both. “Designed” was a poor choice of words, and I apologize. I should have said the human species\* developed\* so that the females would appear most attractive when they were most fertile. I’ve often wondered if humans developed aging signals like grey hair and wrinkles (which you don’t see in most other mammals) in order to warn males not to “waste” their sperm on infertile females. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/50 "2006-05-03T22:18:04Z")
I’m 58 years old, and I still get the occasional ogle. Maybe that’s because my attractiveness, rather than being loose, is generally kept on a leash and has been trained not to jump on people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/51 "2006-05-03T23:05:38Z")
> [@mjin](#): > > If not for sexuality, women would have no negotiable assets. If humans reproduced asexually, and sexual attractiveness didn’t exist, 90 percent of women would be utterly worthless to the world. Unless, of course, the world desperately needed legions of bimbos who dress, talk, act, think and sound alike. Like, how do they tell themselves, like, apart? [Moderator Mode] **mjin** , even though this is your first post on the SDMB, there is no excuse for this kind of misogyny outside of The BBQ Pit\*. Do not post in this manner again.[/Moderator Mode] \*I’m not saying that it’s proper to post this _in_ The BBQ Pit either, but at least there you’ll get the responses you so richly deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/52 "2006-05-03T23:31:52Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > “Designed” was a poor choice of words, and I apologize. I should have said the human species\* developed\* so that the females would appear most attractive when they were most fertile. > > I’ve often wondered if humans developed aging signals like grey hair and wrinkles (which you don’t see in most other mammals) in order to warn males not to “waste” their sperm on infertile females. I doubt it, men get them too. Those are side effects of aging which is a totally different field. One of the theories of aging is that because old age genes do not inhibit reproductive benefits that they amassed over the millions of years and we just crap out after our kids are grown up. ---
**Author:** ![mjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/53 "2006-05-03T23:38:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Moderator Mode] **mjin** , even though this is your first post on the SDMB, there is no excuse for this kind of misogyny outside of The BBQ Pit\*. Do not post in this manner again.[/Moderator Mode] > > \*I’m not saying that it’s proper to post this _in_ The BBQ Pit either, but at least there you’ll get the responses you so richly deserve. You should really spend four years in college. However. Fair enough. Although you misused the term “mysogyny”; as your claim is false and seems to be a bit of ad hominem itself. However, I must respect playground rules. To that end I withdraw my statement herein and reserve the right to re-assert it at a later date of my choosing in the proper forum. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/54 "2006-05-04T10:32:44Z")
Thank you. As a woman, I feel that, in broad terms (please excuse the pun) any given woman has as much worth as any given man, no more and no less. “Bimbos who dress, talk, act, think and sound alike” come in both male and female form, in my experience. **Gymnopithys** , I gather you’re unaware of studies which show that men who are shorter or less attractive than average are less likely to be hired for sales jobs or executive positions. A man’s bald spot can count against him just as much as a woman’s gray hair, and it’s harder to disguise. I’m over 40, and I’ve never been more than average in terms of physical attractiveness. As a result, I’ve never traded on it or considered it an important part of my value as a human being. I have other assets, and I use them. That’s one reason I’m a programmer, rather than a sales rep, even though I’ve done well enough at sales when I’ve had to. The OP posits that less attractive women have a smaller pool of potential mates to choose from. From what I’ve seen and heard, the same applies to less attractive men. Physical appearance is only one component of what makes a person attractive – just see the recent [IMHO thread on Rick Santorum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=369574) for a fine example. I was reading a book on using ballroom dancing as a way to meet people the other day and it pointed out that an average-looking man who’s a good dancer stands a much better chance with women in general than a good-looking man who can’t or won’t dance. The author mentioned the phenomenon of seeing women come up to the average-looking guy and asking if they could dance with him! That jibes with my experience. Just look at how many women think Fred Astaire’s attractive. No, I don’t think it’s unfair that I’m becoming less physically attractive to 20-somethings as I get older. What’s that line from a song? “May be you were nervous, thinking you were losing your looks. Well confidentially, Chuck, you got no looks to lose.” Among other things, a 20-something who thinks my worth and my attractiveness is tied up only in my physical appearance is of no interest to me, and certainly not attractive. On the scale of injustice, this makes a featherweight look heavy. You know what’s a greater injustice? Healthy young women starving themselves because they think they have to be physically attractive to have any worth or people who think a woman has to wear evidence that she’s spent $30 or $40 on cosmetics to consider her attractive or professional. Here’s another one: boys who’d insult a young girl to her face because they think she’s ugly and she wears braces on her legs as well as her teeth, not considering what kind of heart or personality she has. I saw this first hand because the young girl I mentioned was my childhood best friend. In short, I strongly disagree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/55 "2006-05-04T11:24:22Z")
**Siege** , I’m out of words to express how much I agree with you, and disagree (partly) with myself. Oh yes, I’m certainly aware that many men are disavantaged because of their look, and also because of their age. You know how difficult it is for men over 50 or even 40 years old to be hired. What’s a mystery to me then, is why human beings retain the ability to remain sexually active when they have passed their ability to reproduce, and have become unattractive (including myself). But that is another question… ---
**Author:** ![mjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjin)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/56 "2006-05-04T13:08:23Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > “Bimbos who dress, talk, act, think and sound alike” come in both **male** and female form, in my experience. I absolutely agree. But the topic was specifically women. Note, also, that I did not say “all” women. Anyway, the issue has been officially sequestered and I fear to discuss it, here, any further. (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/57 "2006-05-04T13:33:24Z")
> [@mjin](#): > > You should really spend four years in college. It seems to have done wonders for you. > [@Siege](#): > > No, I don’t think it’s unfair that I’m becoming less physically attractive to 20-somethings as I get older. What’s that line from a song? “May be you were nervous, thinking you were losing your looks. Well confidentially, Chuck, you got no looks to lose.” Among other things, a 20-something who thinks my worth and my attractiveness is tied up only in my physical appearance is of no interest to me, and certainly not attractive. > > On the scale of injustice, this makes a featherweight look heavy. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I don’t spend my time worrying about whether males who are closer to my daughter’s age than mine find me “hot”. They’re not really my demographic. And as for whether forty year olds find me “hot”, well, I don’t lose sleep over it. If my face caved in on itself tomorrow, I’d still be smart, funny, emotionally and financially stable and independent, and loved by the people who matter to me. Don’t cry for me, **Gymnopithys**. ---
**Author:** ![mjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjin)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/58 "2006-05-05T21:42:39Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > It seems to have done wonders for you. The bad news: She knows nothing. The good news: She has everything to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949/59 "2006-05-05T21:54:22Z")
> [@mjin](#): > > The bad news: She knows nothing. > > The good news: She has everything to learn. You have four posts, all in this thread, three of which are unpleasant. Please do not maintain this track record if you wish to remain a poster on the SDMB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-loosing-attractiveness-unfair/354949.md?page=2)