# Women (over)react to catcalling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120 "2009-08-20T20:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/241 "2009-08-23T04:29:07Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > **Jamaika a jamaikaiaké** , thank you for giving enough of a shit to make the effort to figure this out and to bring it to other people’s attention. If this weren’t something that was considered totally insignificant and swept under the rug until violence erupts, it wouldn’t happen so much. No offence, but I think you are making a similar mistake to the one the oblivious men are making. Lemme explain. It wasn’t because I gave enough of a shit that I figured it out. I was lucky enough to stumble on HollaBackNYC. Just as some\* of us men don’t realize this is happening, I think most women don’t realize that some men really don’t know. Just because it’s blaringly obvious to you doesn’t mean it’s obvious to us. And just because we don’t see it\*\* doesn’t mean it’s not happening. \*Obviously, the men who do the catcalling are aware of the phenomenon. I would guess, however, most of my head-up-our-asses nerd compatriots really don’t know about this. \*\*Because the assholes whisper or don’t usually do it to my wife when I’m walking to with her or whatnot. PS. I’m not writing this post to be combative. I’m not trying to absolve any of these men of any of their responsibility. I’m hoping that the women this happens to will realize that one of the ways they can fight back is to sit their menfolk down and tell them (1) this shit happens regularly and (2) it’s unacceptable. Or maybe I’m an incurable optimist, and it won’t do jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/242 "2009-08-23T05:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I live and work in downtown Minneapolis, and it doesn’t just happen at 2am. Why on Earth would I make this up? It happened to me this morning. As in today, August 21, 2009 at 8:00am on the corner of Portland and 10th. Two guys were standing outside and they started screaming “Hey girl” at me repeatedly. They followed me to nearly the end of the block, and asked me if I thought I were too good for them, heckled me and the like, and I continued to ignore them until it pissed me off enough for me to tell them to shut the fuck up. This happened. Today. What also happened is they lectured me about having an attitude, even though they were the ones who yelled at me from across the street and followed me for almost a block. This happened. Today. It happens all the time. It happened in Los Angeles, it happened in San Francisco, it happened in Philadelphia, and it is happening here. > > Don’t tell me I’m making shit up because it doesn’t happen to you. > [@stretch](#): > > Lucky you. I get this shit regularly. I don’t find it mildly complimentary to be screamed at by some guy: “Hey, Baby!; Suck My Dick!; Does the carpet match the curtains?” None of these are compliments. But I can mostly ignore that shit. It’s the escalation. I don’t consider having someone following me down the street in his car asking me if I want a ride to be innocuous. > > I’m not MOL, but there’s a tone and escalation that creeps use. I know people are going to hit on me and I’m okay with that. But screaming at me from a car, following me down the street, getting upset and extra creepy when I ignore you or tell you to leave me alone? Those things are not okay. > > Self-defense when faced with threatening behavior is okay by me. What the woment in the link did was wrong. What some other woman does to a heckling guy may be okay with me, depending on the context. > > And the fact that some of us get this shit more than others should not be surprising. In my case, in addition to being stupid enough to have been born female, I have the nerve to have long red hair. I must be asking for all this attention–if I didn’t want attention I would obviously cut if all off and dye it mousy brown. And wear a fucking bhurka too, because some men can’t help themselves when they see a woman and apparently I have to accomodate that. :rolleyes: > > As to the being nice to the guy long enough to get a free drink…addressing that would take a whole thread that I’m not up to starting right now. > [@MissIntent](#): > > How often does it have to result in confrontation/stalking to make it justified that I don’t like it? > > I don’t get it much anymore. I don’t wander around in public often anymore, but it happened enough when I did to make me uncomfortable. > > One time in particular, a guy in a car yelled at me as I walked through the parking lot of my apartment. I ignored him and kept walking, he sped after me in his car and jumped out. By that point I was running for my apartment. I didn’t look back, I have no idea how far he chased me. It was enough. > > I’m getting a gun and a license to carry soon. I’m tired of being scared, it’s bull shit. > > And I agree with everything MeanOldLady has said in this thread. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’ve had it happen to me since I was 12, and I live in Milwaukee. It happened when I was a kid walking to the library in the summer; it happens now when I’m an adult walking home from my downtown job. > > I have actually taught myself to cultivate a constant, slight smile, without having to actively think about maintaining it, specifically to avoid this kind of behavior. Read that again: I have **permanently changed my default expression to avoid harassment from complete strangers**. Does that seem right to you? > > Go read the thread [Catcalls and Things People Shout at You from Cars](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525692). > [@StaudtCJ](#): > > Expecting anyone to smile for your comfort is obnoxious. I’ve also cultivated that slight smile in order to be left alone. I wear minimizer bras. I have a firearm. Even with these “precautions”, I get catcalled and heckled. I live in an urban area, and just walking the 1/8 mile to the nearest mall (which is done on a daily basis, since I have a 2-hour a day commission-only stint there), I get a comment of some sort at least half the time. I’ve been yelled at, called names, propositioned, whistled at, told to smile (apparently my cultivated smile doesn’t count, because it’s not a “real” smile), told to smile BIGGER, nearly hit by a car for apparently “failing to appreciate” some dude’s comments, asked if my boobs were real, told that SomeDude wanted to “fuck my titties”, and followed all the way to the mall. > > The idiots hanging outside the mall are horrid, too, because they’ll grin and smile and say “Hey baby, what’s your hurry” and block my path into the mall. Then they’ll get upset if I get offended. “Hey, can’t you take a joke?” “It’s a compliment, baby, you should be flattered.” Of course, there’s always the “well, you’re a stuck up bitch anyway. No one wants to fuck you.” If you complain to the police or mall security, these guy policemen and security guards either think you’re over-reacting, crazy, or stupid and snotty. Because the guys never TOUCHED me, just “hovered” a few inches away and blocked my path, then the security people couldn’t do anything, and figured _I_ was the asshole for even bothering to report such a minor thing. The ONLY time I’ve ever had any success in reporting harassing and threatening behavior was the one time I got a female police officer. She actually took me seriously. > > If this happened at a high school, and the players involved were an aggressive football team, and the heckle-ee was a little nerdy guy with glasses, everyone would be up in arms. STOP THE BULLYING! and so on. But because it’s just happening to women, and women should just shut up and deal with it, or stay inside, or heck, just cultivate that smiling expression, or wear more covering clothes, or wear a minimizer bra, or get some mace, it’s just fine. Right. I said it before, and I’ll say it again. It should be socially acceptable for women to carry and use mace on guys if they feel verbally threatened. Especially since a lot of guys don’t just make comments, they will follow a woman and touch her if she doesn’t respond, or doesn’t respond in a manner pleasing to the guy. Because it seems that nothing else will work. Teenage girls, especially, should be encouraged to carry mace. I got catcalled and followed and cornered and groped when I was a teenager, actually, starting before I was 13. I was sexually mature, but I looked vulnerable. And since some guys thought that they could get away with it, they tried it. If I dye my hair, I’ll still get a few inappropriate remarks, not as bad as when I was in my teens and twenties, but it’s enough that it tips the balance between dying my hair or not. I must exude sexual energy, because even after I got pretty fat, I’d get remarks. The only thing that seems to work is a combination of obesity, grey hair, and a permanent scowl on my face. And I use a walking stick now. I think that most guys don’t catcall. But the ones who do won’t stop this behavior unless they think that they’re gonna get hurt if they continue doing it. > [@](#): > > Anyway, she went to read the bus schedule, and I was talking with someone, when I hear a shout like “AAarrrrg!!!” in a masculine voice comming from her direction - I look over to see her with her fist out and a rather ugly fellow with a moustache staggering backwards clutching his bleeding nose. Naturally I rush forwards - as did we all - when, in perfect timing, ugly moustache man’s two male companions each grabbed one of his arms and dragged him off backwards, screaming obscenities and threats. > > What had happened was this: moustache man, drunk and beligerent and with his two buddies, had seen my wife standing (as he thought) alone. He evidently did not realize she was with me and 20+ friends. He came right up to her, grabbed her boob, and made a disgusting remark. This earned him an instant punch in the snoot. His two friends, less drunk perhaps, had quickly realized that the crowd was moving towards them, grabbed him, and dragged him away. > > The whole thing happened so quickly none of us really had any thought to pursue the matter further, but clearly if ugly mostache man’s friends hadn’t dragged him off, there would have been a brawl, or more accurately a beating, given that they were outnumbered 21 to 3. Me, I was impressed by my wife’s reflexes. She packs quite a punch. If the woman in question had been alone, how far would this asshole have gone? Would he have stopped at just a grab, or would he have tried to rape her? Who can tell? But clearly, he thought that it was OK to grab a stranger’s boob. He needed a good snootful of mace, or a severe beating, not just a quick punch in the nose. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/243 "2009-08-23T05:53:57Z")
> [@There\_Goes\_a\_Tenner](#): > > _cries openly for the plight of the white male_ Yes, only victims deserve human compassion. If you were born white and male you’re not a victim by definition so it’s ok to abuse you. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/244 "2009-08-23T06:12:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, only victims deserve human compassion. If you were born white and male you’re not a victim by definition so it’s ok to abuse you. Suffering the consequences for acting like a dick is not ‘abuse’ by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/245 "2009-08-23T07:26:06Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > _sign_ I knew this was coming. [Analogy, **Lord Ashtar** , is _not_ equivalence](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342011). A pit thread as a cite? Really? :rolleyes: Is calling someone a nigger analogous to lynching them? They’re both forms of bullying against black people, just on opposite ends of the spectrum of severity. My analogy and **LeeshaJoy’s** analogy are analogous in that neither one of them is a valid analogy. Also, they’re both logical fallacies in that they are appeals to emotion (and piss poor ones at that). > [@](#): > > But since you find that analogy too strong for you delicate sensibilities, try this. I reject the analogy because it’s invalid, not because it violates my “delicate sensibilities”. Reading comprehension fail. > [@](#): > > Sometimes, people try to rob stores. They attempt to rob stands set up by the roadside, they attempt to rob little corner stores with minimal security, they attempt to shoplift at friggin’ Macy’s. Now, you may be condescending enough to believe that the shop owners aren’t taking what steps they can afford to prevent or minimize theft, but beyond things like vigilant clerks, security cameras, locked show cases, etc., what are they supposed to do? The very fact of the store’s existence attracts people who want a five-fingered discount. Is this somehow the proprietor’s fault? People are going to try and shoplift no matter what security measures are in place, just as guys are going to cat call no matter what women do or how they dress. You can’t control the shoplifter, all you can do is take all the necessary precautions. So I guess I should thank you for reinforcing my point. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/246 "2009-08-23T08:03:25Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Suffering the consequences for acting like a dick is not ‘abuse’ by any stretch of the imagination. So the next time I hold a door at 7-11 for a woman who glides through with her nose in the air and with not a scintilla of thanks or even acknowledgement of my existence, I can smack the shit out of her or mace her for being rude? Or are over-reactions to things women find offensive about men the only ones that excuse physical violence? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/247 "2009-08-23T09:45:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You shouldn’t have to change anything about yourself to APPEASE some rude asshole, but you might be able to take action steps to DIFFUSE the asshole. See the subtle difference there? Smiling at some asshole who barks an order to smile at you **is** appeasement. Walking around with a smile on your face when you don’t feel happy and aren’t in any way amused, just to avoid the assholes barking smile at you **is** appeasement. _It is not incumbent on anyone to change their demeanor or behavior to “diffuse” socially inept assholes._ > [@JoseArcadio](#): > > For the ladies in the thread who are sick of being catcalled - do any of you listen to some kind of music player when you go out? I take mine everywhere and it has dramatically cut down the number of comments I get in the street (or I can’t hear them anymore, at least). Not a real solution. If you don’t want to listen to music, then what? You’re right back where you started. If you’re on your phone, or with another woman and want to have a conversation, you’re right back to vulnerable. Once again we’re putting women at an imbalance. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So the next time I hold a door at 7-11 for a woman who glides through with her nose in the air and with not a scintilla of thanks or even acknowledgement of my existence, I can smack the shit out of her or mace her for being rude? When not saying thank you is an aggressive, confrontational and combative thing to do, then yes, you can mace her. Honestly, you couldn’t have made a worse analogy if you tried. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/248 "2009-08-23T11:01:47Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I said it before, and I’ll say it again. It should be socially acceptable for women to carry and use mace on guys if they feel verbally threatened. Okay, you’re either paying your therapist too much or not enough, I’m not sure which. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/249 "2009-08-23T12:43:27Z")
I’m not sure what “feeling verbally threatened” means. Isn’t it already acceptable in most places to use self-defense (including pepper spray) if one feels \*physically \*threatened? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/250 "2009-08-23T13:02:59Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’m not sure what “feeling verbally threatened” means. Isn’t it already acceptable in most places to use self-defense (including pepper spray) if one feels \*physically \*threatened? If someone is close enough to use mace on and is being verbally aggressive, they’re being physically aggressive too. Someone saying offensive things and getting into your personal space is a threat, period. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/251 "2009-08-23T13:52:42Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Smiling at some asshole who barks an order to smile at you **is** appeasement. Walking around with a smile on your face when you don’t feel happy and aren’t in any way amused, just to avoid the assholes barking smile at you **is** appeasement. _It is not incumbent on anyone to change their demeanor or behavior to “diffuse” socially inept assholes._ Am I speaking Chinese here? Am I really being this misunderstood? Ouch. What I’m saying is try different stuff out and see if something works better. But you’re probably right. Keep doing the same things over and over, and you’ll probably eventually get a different result. You can likely change the world by doing absolutely nothing. Good luck with that. I’m outa this thread. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/252 "2009-08-23T14:38:57Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > No offence, but I think you are making a similar mistake to the one the oblivious men are making. Lemme explain. > > It wasn’t because I gave enough of a shit that I figured it out. I was lucky enough to stumble on HollaBackNYC. Yeah, but when you stumbled on HollaBackNYC you gave enough of a shit to _read_ it and take the stories there seriously. You didn’t roll your eyes at the precious delicate princesses whining about guys being guys, or tell them all how it can’t possibly be _that_ bad, or suggest ways they could rearrange their whole lives to avoid this sort of treatment. Judging by the responses in this thread, that’s pretty goddamn rare. In this thread, women are telling men that this goes on, that it’s common, and that it’s unacceptable. And most of the men are dismissing our experiences as exaggeration and oversensitivity and telling us to just suck it up and give the bullies what they want. It’s not that these assholes don’t know–we’re sitting right here telling them, ffs–it’s that it doesn’t directly affect them and thus they don’t give a shit. And since the rape analogy has everyone’s panties in a wad and comparing yelling “nigger” to lynching someone, let’s compare verbal assholery to verbal assholery. Let’s examine the response this thread would likely have if it were a story about one of a group of white guys yelling racial epithets at a group of black guys and them beating the shit out of the wrong cracker. In that case, nobody would bat an eye at someone expressing the opinion that physical violence is wrong, and it’s horrible the innocent guy got beat up, but the shithead doing the yelling rather had it coming. But when someone in this thread expresses that opinion about this situation–OMG, man-hating bitches at 3 o’clock!!!111eleventy!! If we’d hit a guy for that, we’d probably set his crotch on fire for asking what time it was!!! And we’re all just making these stories up and exaggerating and over-reacting anyway. Nobody would tell a black person they should smile all the time, or walk a certain way, or wear earphones or dress a certain way or change their behavior in any way at all to avoid some asshole yelling “nigger” at them. No one would have the cast-iron balls necessary to suggest that black people can’t change other people’s attitudes and behaviors and therefore have to rely on changing themselves to avoid verbal abuse. No, we would consider those suggestions completely outrageous and evidence of racism in the person who made them. That person would be reviled, told that sort of attitude was utterly unconscionable, that there was absolutely no excuse for thinking and acting that way. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/253 "2009-08-23T14:41:08Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > If someone is close enough to use mace on and is being verbally aggressive, they’re being physically aggressive too. Someone saying offensive things and getting into your personal space is a threat, period. **Lynn** ’s comment was this: > [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > It should be socially acceptable for women to carry and use mace on guys if they feel verbally threatened. “_Should be_ socially acceptable” implies that it is not currently socially acceptable for women to use mace for that reason. My question is: if it is already socially acceptable for women to use self-defense when they are physically threatened, what is implied by “verbally threatened” that isn’t already covered? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/254 "2009-08-23T16:36:59Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > When not saying thank you is an aggressive, confrontational and combative thing to do, then yes, you can mace her. You might want to take note that “_Acting like a dick_” was the criterion expressed and it was that which I was responding to. In other words, acting like a dick is not sufficient provocation for the idiotic over-reactions that people in this thread are attempting to justify. In most jurisdictions, outright name-calling or the use of so-called “fighting words” is not sufficient justification for striking (or macing) someone. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/255 "2009-08-23T16:55:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Reacting to violence to something people say is an overreaction. This reminds me of the men who beat a gay man to death who makes a pass at them, and then claim the “gay panic” defense. It had to happen sooner or later. I agree with Der Trihs. Someone _whistled_. Someone else got beaten half to death. It’s a fucking assault and battery for no cause. And CrazyCatLady starts with the rape shit and all that? Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/256 "2009-08-23T17:01:13Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > In this thread, women are telling men that this goes on, that it’s common, and that it’s unacceptable. And most of the men are dismissing our experiences as exaggeration and oversensitivity and telling us to just suck it up and give the bullies what they want. It’s not that these assholes don’t know–we’re sitting right here telling them, ffs–it’s that it doesn’t directly affect them and thus they don’t give a shit. Yeah, you’re right. It’s easy for random assholes on the internet to be dismissive. I agree lots of people are being totally out of line in this thread. I guess what I was trying to say is that by telling the men you know personally (husbands, boyfriends, brothers, really good friends) about will make it affect those people much more directly and personally than telling SDMBers. The reason I believe this is that I _didn’t_ know for 28 years. I really wish someone would have told me! Yes, I should have been more observant, but I still wish someone would have told me. The more men who are told in such a way that they can’t ignore/deny (ie, by loved ones), the less socially acceptable it will become. I may be wrong about this, but it seems like this and pepper spray are the only possible solutions. Not that I have anything against pepper spray… Incidentally, has anyone tried a response along the lines of “what would your mother say?” Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/257 "2009-08-23T17:08:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You might want to take note that “_Acting like a dick_” was the criterion expressed and it was that which I was responding to. In other words, acting like a dick is not sufficient provocation for the idiotic over-reactions that people in this thread are attempting to justify. In most jurisdictions, outright name-calling or the use of so-called “fighting words” is not sufficient justification for striking (or macing) someone. Okay, after having slept on it, I realize I should clarify. What I was responding to was the bullshit knee-jerk response that any slight against a white male is somehow ‘oppression’ of the entire demographic. I completely agree that the assault described in the OP was so far out of line that you can’t even _see_ the line anymore, and the women involved should be punished under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/258 "2009-08-23T17:27:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > People are going to try and shoplift no matter what security measures are in place, just as guys are going to cat call no matter what women do or how they dress. You can’t control the shoplifter, all you can do is take all the necessary precautions. So I guess I should thank you for reinforcing my point. 😕 Of course there will always be shoplifters and it makes a difference whether they are 6, 16 or 26 years old too. That doesn’t mean everybody shrugs their shoulders and says there’s nothing to be done about it. Apart from laws against it, the general social attitude is against as well. People might not want to intervene in case they get hurt but most consider it something they would feel ashamed to do and it is _their_ attitude that keeps it down, the fact that theft is not acceptable to them or their acquaintances. What teenage boys might shout at girls and each other probably doesn’t matter so much because most of the girls are just as capable of the same (until it gets to the level of serious bullying). How their mates might approve of shoplifting doesn’t matter so much either because the laws are there to control that. But after a time they expect to grow up and shoplifting isn’t ‘devilry’ showing off any more, it’s either juvenile or straight deliberate theft and not socially acceptable either way except for a very small underclass. Why doesn’t catcalling go the same way? Somehow a lot of otherwise adults still accept what they or they mates should long ago have grown out of. They’re not going to yell ‘Baldy’ or ‘Four-eyes’ at somebody of the sort and collapse in hysterics at the amazing fun of it, they’d think it retarded and they’d be right. So why do they still feel able to do the equivalent at women? Could it be in part that we (and Americans even more so) are very hostile to anything un-masculine? That includes a lot of women comparing themselves to men as a standard and taking for granted that what is traditional of men is ‘better’ and unsupportive of men they’d call ‘wimps’ and ‘fags’ for disputing those standards, often positively hostile to men valuing anything ‘feminine’ on grounds that in some way they are trying to exclude women from these ‘superior’ formerly masculine activities. It isn’t necessarily the women who is despised as much as what is feminine about her - and maybe a femininity the men feel afraid of enough to demonstrate their rejection of it (and so rejection of any suspicion of it in themselves). Maybe one way to get these tit-heads to grow up is to value ‘the feminine’ (which to some extent includes respect for others) a lot more than we do. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/259 "2009-08-23T17:33:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It had to happen sooner or later. I agree with Der Trihs. Someone _whistled_. Someone else got beaten half to death. It’s a fucking assault and battery for no cause. And CrazyCatLady starts with the rape shit and all that? Damn. I think we’ve long strayed from the drunken broads in the OP who beat up an innocent guy, and have gotten into a general discussion of catcalling in general, and women’s anger about this. So anyway, you know, this kind of steet harassment has never, EVER happened to me while my husband was with me. For the three years we’ve been together, and in every city we’ve been in, no one has ever Hey Baby’d me while standing directly next to a 6’2" broad shouldered men. No light stalking, no horn-honking, not so much as a single whistle in my direction has occured when with the spouse. Not a coincidence. So gripe and quibble about the rape analogies all day long, but it’s bullying, plain and simple, and there’s not a whole lot the victim can do about it. What else are we supposed to do? Always be with a male companion? Wear burqas? If we hit the guy, we’re overreacting. Shall we all permanently change the way we naturally are and would like to be, so that people do not harass us/rape us/shoplift from the Macy’s we manage, etc? The women being heckled this way are not inviting this kind of behavior. It’s not ladies of the evening with their ass cheeks hanging out who are treated this way. It’s all of us. No matter if we smile or scowl, regardless or how we dress or what we look like. We’re talking about people minding their own business, walking to work or the post office or home, or wherever, and had the audacity to be alone or with other women all while sporting a vagina. Come the fuck on, alrady. > [@tdn](#): > > I’m outa this thread. I’ll still send you that Christmas card. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/260 "2009-08-23T17:36:53Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Okay, after having slept on it, I realize I should clarify. What I was responding to was the bullshit knee-jerk response that any slight against a white male is somehow ‘oppression’ of the entire demographic. I completely agree that the assault described in the OP was so far out of line that you can’t even _see_ the line anymore, and the women involved should be punished under the law. Okay, thanks for the clarification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=14)