# Women (over)react to catcalling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120 "2009-08-20T20:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/461 "2009-08-26T15:06:49Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You just answered your own question. > I never suggested that. Why did you? > > BTW, I love your attitude of doing whatever the hell you want. Good for you! But if you don’t like the way people are treating you, why are you so resistant to at least exploring options that might change that? Sir, I like you (Really!), but you need to stop taking the crazy pills. Changing yourself so other people will stop being jerks isn’t empowerment, it’s giving in. But more importantly, as has been pointed out numerous times, that’s an impossible option anyway. The harassment happens because they’re women and not much else. Not smiling? Someone will tell you to smile. Smiling? Well that’s clearly an invitation to pestering. Fast walker? Every asshole on earth wants to know what the hurry is. Walking slowly? Great, makes it easier for the guy to swoop in. Showing skin? Well then you’re asking for it. Not showing skin? Doesn’t matter, I’m going to talk to you anyway. It’s ri-goddamn-diculous. So even if, in theory, there were modifications to one’s behavior the gal could make to have this stop, that’s hardly empowering. But it’s not possible, so here we are. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/462 "2009-08-26T15:09:43Z")
We’re going in circles here. If \*\*\*every \*\*\*catcaller catcalls at women \*\*\*because \*\*\*they’re women, why doesn’t \*\*\*every \*\*\*woman experience this? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/463 "2009-08-26T15:09:58Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > Appeasement isn’t empowerment, Finally, someone who gets it! Yay! > [@](#): > > and appeasement is what women are taught to do. When empowerment is what you should have been learning all along. > [@](#): > > How do you suggest we make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable (which it is) without putting ourselves in danger? I don’t know. I shared some ideas a few pages back, and got accused of being a sexist for it. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/464 "2009-08-26T15:11:48Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > We’re going in circles here. If \*\*\*every \*\*\*catcaller catcalls at women \*\*\*because \*\*\*they’re women, why doesn’t \*\*\*every \*\*\*woman experience this? They don’t? I thought the differences were the frequency, and whether or not certain women find it to be acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/465 "2009-08-26T15:13:20Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Leaving aside that you’re quoting a hotly contested statistic, and that “sexual assault” generally covers everything from rape to subway grinders to flashing, you keep leaving out that part where “73% of rape victims know their assailant”.. I’m going to link to [this page](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims), which is an objective source and only refers to rapes and attempted rapes. I recognize that men who rape women are much, more likely to rape a woman they know than a stranger. However, that doesn’t change the fact that sexual assault is a sickeningly prevalent crime in the US. I’m not sure if you’re trying to say that it isn’t, but I don’t know of any statistics that show that it isn’t ridiculously common by any standard. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/466 "2009-08-26T15:15:45Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m glad that you love your demeanor. Great! But changing it to better control your environment does not mean that there’s anything wrong with you. If someone tells me to sit up straight, does that mean I have some basic flaw in my personality? Does that mean that someone else “won”? No! Why would you even think that? It just means that I can change one tiny thing to project a bit more power and respect. In the right context, fine. If you’re looking for hints on how to succeed at work, or present your best self to make friends or attract a partner, fine. I have no problem with self-help and physically projecting a certain self to get what you want. But that’s talking about making changes to improve things for yourself, to make positive changes **because you want to do that for yourself**. That’s not the same idea as wanting to be able to walk down the street looking however you want, and not get harassed. It’s not the same as having to change who you are to reduce negative things happening to you. Say you are walking down the street and maybe not every time but often enough, you attracted negative attention because you’re bald. Being a bald human is no fault of your own and you should be allowed to walk down the street without being harrassed for it. Would getting hairplugs be empowering yourself, or appeasing them to make. it. stop. ?? ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/467 "2009-08-26T15:16:35Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Finally, someone who gets it! Yay! > When empowerment is what you should have been learning all along. But by suggesting smiling at someone who is harassing us, you’re suggesting appeasement as a strategy. Smiling at someone who is insulting you is not empowering. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/468 "2009-08-26T15:16:50Z")
tdn, I agree that we need to change things so that women aren’t harassed on the street at all. I think we are disagreeing on what to change. You think women should change themselves; I think we as a society need to figure out how to change whatever it is that makes harassers think their actions are socially acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/469 "2009-08-26T15:29:15Z")
Actually, scratch that, not socially acceptable, because it clearly is that already. Acceptable as something a human being does to another human being. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/470 "2009-08-26T15:34:50Z")
**MeanOldLady** , I like you too, but I think the pills I’m taking are not so crazy. (I’ll check with my pharmacist, though.) Let me try to give you an analogy to help illustrate what I’m talking about. Let’s say I want to be a better singer. I complain that no matter what song I sing, it just doesn’t sound right, and there’s NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. I blame the songs. A voice coach comes along and suggests that I stand up straighter and breathe from my diaphragm. “That will never work!”, I say. “There’s nothing I can do! Some songs are just jerks! Why should I have to change my posture just to appease some songs? That’s like admitting that there’s something wrong with me! Would you ever saysomething like that to a black person?” Crazy pills indeed! 🙂 No one’s asking you to change who you are. But if you can find an easy way to take control over your situation, why wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/471 "2009-08-26T15:39:56Z")
As a lurker for part of this thread, I have to say I can’t really get behind you, **tdn**. I’m sure your intentions here are good, but I can’t see any way that what you suggest is not appeasement. **gigi** sums it up in that changing yourself is a good thing when you want to do it _for yourself_, and your analogy only supports that, as presumably you want to become a better singer for yourself. But changing your behavior not because you want to but because someone’s being a jerk is simply letting the jerk control you. It would be the same as if you didn’t really want to sing, but your parents or your spouse was pushing you to improve. That’s not empowerment, that’s appeasing the people trying to control you. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/472 "2009-08-26T15:40:12Z")
The difference in trying to be a singer is that the coach is telling you how you can affect your own behavior, and make it more effective. A woman who walks in public cannot really control a catcalling man, unless she puts a really fierce scowl on her face. Period. Or unless she has a male escort at all times. We’ve told you, we’ve tried it, it doesn’t work, if anything, smiling in public is an invitation to more catcalls. So your solution is invalid. It’s like the voice coach telling the aspiring singer to take up smoking in order to increase his lung capacity. It’s counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/473 "2009-08-26T15:42:01Z")
It’s more like if a bully is telling your kid that he wants his lunch money, why shouldn’t he just give it to him? It would make his situation easier. Or if a woman’s boss tells her she’ll get a promotion if she wears shorter skirts, why shouldn’t she do it? It’ll make her life better! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/474 "2009-08-26T15:42:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m glad that you love your demeanor. Great! But changing it to better control your environment does not mean that there’s anything wrong with you. If someone tells me to sit up straight, does that mean I have some basic flaw in my personality? Does that mean that someone else “won”? No! Why would you even think that? It just means that I can change one tiny thing to project a bit more power and respect. Alternatively, women could continue to do whatever the hell they want, and certain men could stop treating them like novelty items. The problem isn’t with the women who think catcalling is demeaning, believe me. I’m convinced (and was before this thread, for the record) that there’s a kind of cognitive dissonance at work in a lot of men’s minds with regard to this subject. It seems so obvious to me that if we looked at the typical male-female street interaction at all objectively, we would acknowledge that holy god-damn _shit_, it’s offensive to whistle at a woman, or obtrusively ogle a woman, or comment on a woman’s appearance to one’s buddies on the way by, etc. etc. The average man’s mind isn’t well-equipped to strip away the societal expectation and really consider what it must be like to walk on that stage all the time, and so it’s a lot easier to blame the victim. To be fair, this is kind of instinctive behavior – it’s not like there’s not a good biological reason to be constantly literally on the prowl – but it’s probably worth thinking about how that mindset turns the woman into prey. Women who don’t have a problem with this, or are flattered by it, are lucky, I think. Women who are sensitive to it and feel threatened by it don’t need to change their “demeanor,” however. They’re just being reasonable. And, since it doesn’t cost me anything to say it, **tdn** , I think you’re coming off a little paternalistic and sexist with your coaching and your analogy. Being victimized isn’t the same as not having developed a skill. Women don’t want to become “better objectification-avoiders.” They aren’t the ones with the problem in this scenario. The better analogy is, if I keep getting bitten by a dog when I’m walking down the street, and I’m talking to the dog owner about it, and he says “just rub some hot pepper oil all over yourself; dogs hate that shit!” That’s not good advice. It’s an improper shifting of the burden to deflect responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/475 "2009-08-26T15:42:29Z")
A better analogy would be like so: Let’s say I want to sing. I complain that no matter what song I sing, it just doesn’t sound right, and there’s NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. I blame the person choking me by the throat. A voice coach comes along and suggests that the other person release my throat. They do. I can sing now. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/476 "2009-08-26T15:42:49Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > That’s not the same idea as wanting to be able to walk down the street looking however you want, and not get harassed. It’s not the same as having to change who you are to reduce negative things happening to you. Why can’t it be? If you can get what you want in the board room, why not on the street? > [@](#): > > Say you are walking down the street and maybe not every time but often enough, you attracted negative attention because you’re bald. Being a bald human is no fault of your own and you should be allowed to walk down the street without being harrassed for it. Would getting hairplugs be empowering yourself, or appeasing them to make. it. stop. ?? Gee, let me see if I can relate to this analogy. 😉 I dealt with it by shaving my head, finding a facial hair style that flatters me the best, got some better clothes, and learning to walk with more confidence. I didn’t do that to appease anyone, because I don’t consider myself a victim of male pattern baldness. I empowered myself by owning it and making it look goooood. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/477 "2009-08-26T15:44:11Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > They don’t? I thought the differences were the frequency, and whether or not certain women find it to be acceptable. Let me rephrase the question… why don’t we all encounter the same DEGREE of it? If all catcallers are alike, and consider all women alike, then why are some women insisting that any response to them invites a Thunderdome level violent reaction, while others insist that flipping them the bird is sufficient to get them to bugger off? Like I said, I’ve never once been followed or threatened. Why is that? If _they’re_ all the same, then one must assume that _we’re_ doing something differently. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/478 "2009-08-26T15:46:02Z")
**tdn** , that is just the stupidest damn thing ever typed. You’re suggesting that we should give the bullies what they want so they’ll quit picking on us, and then claiming that’s somehow _empowering_? I don’t know what you’re smoking, but I certainly hope you’re not operating any heavy machinery. I suppose people who get harassed by the cops for “driving while black” should alter their behavior to alter their treatment, right? They should drive fairly nice cars, but not too nice, and not in certain neighborhoods, and they should only play their stereos so loud, and they shouldn’t drive too fast or too slow, and if they object to having to do all this just to avoid totally unacceptable harassment–well, by god, they’re obviously stuck in some sort of victim mentality and don’t feel good about themselves! I said it before, and I’ll say it again–you wouldn’t have the cast-iron testicles necessary to advance such an opinion if the subject were racial harassment, and neither would anyone else. But when the subject turns from “driving while black” to “existing while female” it somehow suddenly stops being an issue of the harasser being a stone-cold shitstain and becomes an issue of the harassee not being empowered enough. What’s up with that horseshit, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/479 "2009-08-26T15:46:45Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Let me try to give you an analogy to help illustrate what I’m talking about. > > Let’s say I want to be a better singer. I complain that no matter what song I sing, it just doesn’t sound right, and there’s NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. I blame the songs. > > A voice coach comes along and suggests that I stand up straighter and breathe from my diaphragm. “That will never work!”, I say. “There’s nothing I can do! Some songs are just jerks! Why should I have to change my posture just to appease some songs? That’s like admitting that there’s something wrong with me! Would you ever saysomething like that to a black person?” BZZZ! Sorry, that is incorrect. Changing the way you sing should change the way songs sound when you sing them. Let’s try an analogy that’s not ridiculous. Pretend you live in a time and place where the folks don’t take well to yer kind, whatever that kind is. Let’s say they’re particularly rude about it, and can’t keep their contempt for yer kind to themselves. Sure, most of the time you can walk about without incident, but there are enough people who certainly aren’t shy about yelling slurs at you, or harassing you, and it happens frequently enough that you’ve come to grow bothered by the way they treat you public. Then some person, all hopped up on crazy pills, suggests that maybe you try doing something a little differently. Try not being so, you know, the way you are and maybe the people will treat you better. You don’t think it’ll work because you’ve witnessed the town folks treat yer kind with hostility no matter what they do. You also have first-hand experience of being treated the same way regardless of how you act, or what you’re wearing, or whether or not you’re smiling. So after concluding that it doesn’t make much of a difference, you say to yourself, Say, why don’t these townies stop acting like jerks instead? And if they’re not going to stop, that’s unfortunate, but I’m certainly not the problem here, so I’m not going to change myself… to no avail at that! ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/480 "2009-08-26T15:47:49Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I recognize that men who rape women are much, more likely to rape a woman they know than a stranger. However, that doesn’t change the fact that sexual assault is a sickeningly prevalent crime in the US. I’m not sure if you’re trying to say that it isn’t, but I don’t know of any statistics that show that it isn’t ridiculously common by any standard. What I’m saying is that insisting that every guy who hoots at you should be considered a threat is ridiculously, extraordinarily distracting and unhelpful. The real threat is far more insidious. > [@SecondJudith](#): > > A better analogy would be like so: > > Let’s say I want to sing. I complain that no matter what song I sing, it just doesn’t sound right, and there’s NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. I blame the person choking me by the throat. > > A voice coach comes along and suggests that the other person release my throat. They do. I can sing now. It’s exactly this implication of powerlessness that’s pissing me off. You are NOT powerless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=25)