# Women (over)react to catcalling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120 "2009-08-20T20:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/521 "2009-08-26T17:44:32Z")
…which is because, as **Jimmy** said so well, the objectification is inherently abusive, even if an individual woman doesn’t feel abused by it. Her reaction to the behavior doesn’t change the fact of the behavior. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/522 "2009-08-26T17:47:39Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I think there’s a really huge difference between noticing (personally) that someone is attractive, and communicating “hey, I think you’re hot!” to a stranger in public. Well, sure. And nobody’s saying that quietly noticing someone’s attractiveness is the same as dry anal rape. But it’s a _continuum_. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/523 "2009-08-26T17:48:27Z")
So what you’re saying is that if I don’t feel abused or threatened, it’s just because I’m too stupid to know better? Go Dworkin Feminism!!!:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/524 "2009-08-26T17:49:08Z")
Who the hell said that? ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/525 "2009-08-26T17:54:27Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > So what you’re saying is that if I don’t feel abused or threatened, it’s just because I’m too stupid to know better? Go Dworkin Feminism!!!:rolleyes: If someone who I know has no power to harm me threatens me, and I don’t feel threatened, did they not make the threat? The point is that one person’s reaction isn’t necessarily related to how we define the action. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/526 "2009-08-26T17:57:31Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Who the hell said that? > [@SecondJudith](#): > > …which is because, as Jimmy said so well, the objectification is inherently abusive, even if an individual woman doesn’t feel abused by it. Her reaction to the behavior doesn’t change the fact of the behavior. How does this \*not \*imply that if I just weren’t so blinded by the patriarchy, I’d have the good sense to feel abused? Once again, slurs, threats, physical confrontation, all abusive. “Objectifying” whistles? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/527 "2009-08-26T17:59:03Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > As a wild guess, I’m gonna go with having been sexually harassed. That doesn’t answer the question at all. The thinking here is that it doesn’t matter what neighborhood one is in, or what city one is in, or how the woman looks, or how she dresses, or walks, or smiles (or not), or anything else. It’s all completely random. But by that thinking, in the course of a year every woman on the planet will have been harassed about the same number of times. But clearly, some women get harassed a lot, some only a little, and some not at all. And that’s consistently, year after year. Now whether you’d like to admit it, there has to be some reason for that. I’m trying to get at what that reason is. I’m not trying to assign blame, I’m not saying that the victims deserve it, and for fucks sake one more time I’m not saying smile to appease the jerks. I’m trying to find the reason why some women get harassed more than others. Does that make more sense? As far as comparing women to blacks, there are similarities and differences. Yes, in both cases people need to realize that certain behaviors are unacceptable. The difference is that race relations change over time, and eventually the us vs them dynamic has a good chance of going away. But male-female dynamics will always be with us. That’s never going to change. So in the long run, women will have a much harder time of it than blacks. That’s why I’m thinking that coping strategies have more value than education. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/528 "2009-08-26T18:03:14Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > The point is that one person’s reaction isn’t necessarily related to how we define the action. True. The fact that someone objects (the reaction) to being whistled at (the action) doesn’t mean the action is objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/529 "2009-08-26T18:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] How does this not imply that if I just weren’t so blinded by the patriarchy, I’d have the good sense to feel abused? Once again, slurs, threats, physical confrontation, all abusive. “Objectifying” whistles? Not so much. [/QUOTE] Whether or not you feel subjectively threatened or abused is not a referendum on whether the behavior itself is objectively offensive in a vacuum. Your intelligence is entirely irrelevant to the question. My personal opinion is more power to you, in exactly the same way that my opinion is that a woman who feels abused has justification to feel that way, and in exactly the same way I would say more power to a woman who doesn’t even feel abused by, for instance, a slur, even though you and other women do. I don’t think you are required to feel the objectification to intellectually appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/530 "2009-08-26T18:05:28Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > How does this \*not \*imply that if I just weren’t so blinded by the patriarchy, I’d have the good sense to feel abused? > > Once again, slurs, threats, physical confrontation, all abusive. “Objectifying” whistles? Not so much. I don’t get mad when people say racist shit to me, that doesn’t mean the person isn’t making racist statements. All it means is I don’t care. I see this as some women being bothered by a sexist behavior, and you not caring. Doesn’t make the behavior any less sexist. No? ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/531 "2009-08-26T18:07:23Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > So in the long run, women will have a much harder time of it than blacks. That’s why I’m thinking that coping strategies have more value than education. So, because it’s harder, we should just learn how to cope rather than actively denouncing it? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/532 "2009-08-26T18:08:53Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > … REAL, STRONG, CONFIDENT woman who nonetheless feels constantly threatened and insists that there’s nothing you can do about it … and > [@DianaG](#): > > So what you’re saying is that if I don’t feel abused or threatened, it’s just because I’m too stupid to know better? Go Dworkin Feminism!!!:rolleyes: Nicely encapsulated, and well said. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/533 "2009-08-26T18:09:05Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > If someone who I know has no power to harm me threatens me, and I don’t feel threatened, did they not make the threat? Sure they did. They made an empty, ridiculous, entirely unthreatening threat. Which means that the ONLY power they have over you is the power to get your recreational outrage het up. Hey, it’s your time, use it as you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/534 "2009-08-26T18:12:47Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Sure they did. They made an empty, ridiculous, entirely unthreatening threat. > > Which means that the ONLY power they have over you is the power to get your recreational outrage het up. > > Hey, it’s your time, use it as you see fit. But that’s not true in this case. Men harm women all the time. It was merely an example of how the reaction doesn’t necessarily invalidate the definition of the action. Besides, many women are irritated or frightened by this behavior (including me). If one black person says they aren’t bothered by racist slurs, does that mean the rest should just get over it? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/535 "2009-08-26T18:13:32Z")
Sorry, Diana, I didn’t mean to imply that one should or shouldn’t feel threatened by it. I am not proscribing how people should react to abusive behavior. But because you have developed good coping skills that keep you from being hurt by that kind of abuse doesn’t mean it should continue. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/536 "2009-08-26T18:13:51Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > My feeling is that you answered your own question - no woman should have to do that. Having established that, I’m going to resist telling a woman that’s what she should do. I think every woman can decide for herself whether she wants to wear a hooded sweatshirt and baggy warmup pants to go to the grocery store, or whether she’d prefer to dress the way she likes and reserve her right to complain about sexual harassment on internet message boards. I don’t think she ever waives her right to feel like she’s being victimized, is my main concern here. Agreed 100%. The way some women get treated is undoubtedly unfair and no one should ever have to put up with that shit. We’re all in agreement with that, right? The thing is, in the real world, it’s still going to happen. We’re all in agreement with that too, right? It seems to me that the conclusion that many are drawing is “Therefore, we shouldn’t make any effort to solve the problem.” That’s my frustration with this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/537 "2009-08-26T18:16:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The thing is, in the real world, it’s still going to happen. We’re all in agreement with that too, right? > > It seems to me that the conclusion that many are drawing is “Therefore, we shouldn’t make any effort to solve the problem.” The effort shouldn’t be made by the women. That’s analogous to saying if people don’t want to be gay-bashed in public, they should stop looking so faggy. Yeah, no they shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/538 "2009-08-26T18:16:37Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > So, because it’s harder, we should just learn how to cope rather than actively denouncing it? Why can’t you do both? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/539 "2009-08-26T18:18:05Z")
Because appeasement reinforces the behavior in the harassers, so it’s counterproductive in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/540 "2009-08-26T18:19:08Z")
I also disagree with the assertion that it’s always going to happen, no matter what. Social behaviors change, but we have to make them change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=28)