# Women (over)react to catcalling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120 "2009-08-20T20:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/581 "2009-08-26T22:13:17Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > The more times the harassee practices her assertiveness, the more confident she becomes in standing up to harassers. Her actions will eventually give rise to changes in the harasser’s behavior; instead of a downspiral of behaviors and reactions that are aggressive, the chance for an upspiral of assertiveness and respect would take place. That’s great, but I think it may be a bit much to ask of an 11-14 year old girl (some of my fondest harassment memories fall in there, and I imagine it’s the same for anyone who hit puberty about then). At the same time, guys that age should still be taking orders from teachers and parents, to a point. That won’t solve the older men targeting young girls, but it’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/582 "2009-08-26T22:54:02Z")
Excerpt from a site I previously noted: > [@](#): > > Grassroots Level: There are several other ways to combat street harassment collectively, through grassroots efforts. > > 1. Join or start an activist organizations such as the Street Harassment Project, Rogers Park Young Women’s Action Team, RightRides, or NYC SafeStreets to work to end street harassment in your area. It not only raises awareness of the problem but concretely aids women dealing with street harassment and works on preventative measures so women are not harassed in the future. > > 2. Create a lobbying group or petition for anti-street harassment ordinances in your city or state so that people who have had serious incidents of street harassment and want to seek legal recourse can have a way to do. > > **3. Schools have drug-free programs, programs to encourage students to recycle, and programs to teach students racial and cultural tolerance, but very little exists on how to treat peers of the opposite sex with respect. Organize or participate in a lobbying group or petition for inclusion of programs that teach respect for one’s peers at every grade level.** And I don’t see why harassment from adults (including other teachers) and how to handle it shouldn’t be included either. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/583 "2009-08-26T23:14:38Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Bang…right there. You’ve lost your control, even when you had it by the balls, so to speak. > > From: [Tactics for Confronting Street Harassers](http://hkearl.com/thesis/tactics.htm): > > [Strategies for Combating Street Harassment](http://hkearl.com/thesis/strategies.htm) from same site. This is the kind of change I speak of if you willingly pursue for yourself. > > This came from a [thesis](http://hkearl.com/thesis/index.htm) by Holly Kearl; and her main [website.](http://www.stopstreetharassment.com/index.htm) > > This is your notice of suit. 😉 These are all good things, Yeticus Rex. I use most of them, when there are other people around. Calling someone out by appearance, loudly, for example, identifies him and the behavior to everyone around him, and provides a shame factor. When I am not around others, I get out of there as fast as possible. The thing is, the change has to come from both sides. Men who catcall need to be told by OTHER MEN that it’s not ok, and they need to be taken to task in assertive ways by women who don’t tolerate it. Until men notice it and take men to task for it as well, nothing is going to happen. It requires both sides of that coin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/584 "2009-08-27T03:43:50Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > These are all good things, Yeticus Rex. I use most of them, when there are other people around. Calling someone out by appearance, loudly, for example, identifies him and the behavior to everyone around him, and provides a shame factor. When I am not around others, I get out of there as fast as possible. The thing is, the change has to come from both sides. Men who catcall need to be told by OTHER MEN that it’s not ok, and they need to be taken to task in assertive ways by women who don’t tolerate it. Until men notice it and take men to task for it as well, nothing is going to happen. It requires both sides of that coin. As long as women agree to recognize that a soft-spoken man doesn’t necessarily mean a weak one and, once in a while, one of you take a chance on the guy who who shyly smiles at you while reading a dog-eared copy of_The Elegant Universe_, we have a deal. Now then. Would you prefer your cat-caller punched into a bloody pulp or twisted into a human pretzel? Sorry catcallers, nothing personal, they’re making an offer I can’t refuse. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/585 "2009-08-27T04:34:30Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > As long as women agree to recognize that a soft-spoken man doesn’t necessarily mean a weak one and, once in a while, one of you take a chance on the guy who who shyly smiles at you while reading a dog-eared copy of_The Elegant Universe_, we have a deal. > > Now then. Would you prefer your cat-caller punched into a bloody pulp or twisted into a human pretzel? Sorry catcallers, nothing personal, they’re making an offer I can’t refuse. An offer? I’m not making an offer. I’m certainly not advocating that you turn someone into a bloody pulp. Simply saying, “Man, that’s not cool. Would you do that if it was your sister/mother/aunt/friend?” is what I’m asking for. Don’t let your friends do this. Say something when you see it. And For the record, I MARRIED the soft-spoken silent type, though he’s not a reader, he’s a gamer. What I’m talking about is simple facts. Women campaigned for the vote, but couldn’t give themselves the vote. They had to convince MEN to CONVINCE MEN that women should have the vote, so that those men would vote for women having the vote. The same sorts of rules apply here. Women can complain all they want, but until other men, the type of people cat-callers actually consider people, say something, NOTHING will be done. ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/586 "2009-08-27T05:36:32Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > You would not believe how many times I’m told I have an attitude because I ignore or reject someone. Actually I _would_ believe it, and I _do_ believe it, because your posts also describe my own experiences very accurately, unfortunately. While others have persisted in telling you they find it all so hard to believe, from your first posts I didn’t have any trouble whatsoever believing what you’ve written. It all just sounds very familiar to me. And FWIW, **MOL** , I really have appreciated reading your posts in this thread. I’m doubtful you’ve changed anybody’s mind here, but it’s nice to read words written by someone who can articulate it as well as you do. So, thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/587 "2009-08-27T10:52:35Z")
> [@raindrop](#): > > I’m doubtful you’ve changed anybody’s mind here, I’m not sure if she’s changed my mind, but she’s certainly changed my awareness. I don’t see this sort of behavior often (it’s probably been decades), but if I see it in the future, I’ll be sure to call it out. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/588 "2009-08-27T11:07:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So preposterize your own self! Is that what happens right before Lebron dunks on you? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/589 "2009-08-27T13:17:23Z")
> [@raindrop](#): > > And FWIW, **MOL** , I really have appreciated reading your posts in this thread. I’m doubtful you’ve changed anybody’s mind here, but it’s nice to read words written by someone who can articulate it as well as you do. So, thanks for that. And despite all the swear words and hyperbolic threats. Thanks. 🙂 And if that sounded snarky (as a lot of things I say do), I’m being serious. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/590 "2009-08-27T15:55:18Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > An offer? I’m not making an offer. I’m certainly not advocating that you turn someone into a bloody pulp. Simply saying, “Man, that’s not cool. Would you do that if it was your sister/mother/aunt/friend?” is what I’m asking for. Don’t let your friends do this. Say something when you see it. And For the record, I MARRIED the soft-spoken silent type, though he’s not a reader, he’s a gamer. > > What I’m talking about is simple facts. Women campaigned for the vote, but couldn’t give themselves the vote. They had to convince MEN to CONVINCE MEN that women should have the vote, so that those men would vote for women having the vote. The same sorts of rules apply here. Women can complain all they want, but until other men, the type of people cat-callers actually consider people, say something, NOTHING will be done. Quite so. But geez, wasn’t that Tony Montana-level over the top enough for you to know I was joking? Next time, I won’t forget the smiley… 😛 But you’re bang on about men having to be willing to step up and call out bad behavior by boors, just as women have to be assertive in standing up for themselves. This principle ain’t an old one. There always needs to be a partnership between conscious members of a ‘privileged’ class and members of the ‘out-group’ who refuse to accept a situation in order for there to be change. ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/591 "2009-08-27T17:00:22Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not sure if she’s changed my mind, but she’s certainly changed my awareness. I don’t see this sort of behavior often (it’s probably been decades), but if I see it in the future, I’ll be sure to call it out. **tdn** : do you use public transportation or attend live sporting events or concerts? Walk around city streets at lunch or after work? Go to a bar for happy hour? If you walk around in public I can’t understand how you couldn’t notice this behavior. As I posted earlier, I see this nearly every day, but it is usually the really mild “hey baby” stuff. From the other thread I’m getting the sense that geography has a lot to do with where this occurs. Out in suburbia you wouldn’t see this so much, whereas downtown with the throng it is so common as to be considered normal. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/592 "2009-08-27T17:28:21Z")
> [@Rack-a-Bones](#): > > **tdn** : do you use public transportation or attend live sporting events or concerts? Walk around city streets at lunch or after work? Go to a bar for happy hour? If you walk around in public I can’t understand how you couldn’t notice this behavior. Every weekday I walk half a mile down a city street, then stand on a train platform, then stand on a train for three stops, then walk another half mile. At the end of the day I do that in reverse. And FWIW (little, apparently) this is in a neighborhood where the women are killer hot. In seven years of doing that routine, I have never seen harassment like that even once. Now maybe I just don’t notice it, but in the last few years I’ve made it a practice to notice every person around me. Maybe **MeanOldLady** should move here. Either she’ll get some peace, or she’ll shake things up a bit. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/593 "2009-08-27T18:51:47Z")
A bit of a commute, but I’ll think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/594 "2009-08-27T19:58:26Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Because I’m not basing my entire out look on what that one guy says. It’s just a confirmation of what I already know. So if it’s confirmation of what you already know, coming from a skeezy guy, why does it have any effect on you whatsover? > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > **Shot From Guns** , everything you said in that long, multi-quoted post was 100% awesome. You’ve been rocking the hell out of this thread, too. So, do I get to grab a firm handful of your ass in that group hug now? > [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > the harassee needs to change from anger (or passivity) to neutral-[assertive](http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200402/assertiveness-not-aggressiveness). How am I supposed to “be assertive” at a guy who’s hollering at me from a car? Turn around, hotwire one parked next to me, and chase after him, hoping to catch him at a stoplight? > [@](#): > > Some will attempt once, but will usually stop harassing the person repeated times. [snip] [The harasee’s] actions will eventually give rise to changes in the harasser’s behavior A lot of harassers just go after more-or-less random women on the street–it’s not anyone they know, and probably not anyone they’d recognize if they harassed her a second time. Your suggestion might work for dealing with a pattern of harassment from a specific person with whom one interacts on a regular basis, but it doesn’t seem terribly feasible for dealing with random strangers whom you don’t recognize and who won’t recognize you again. And, as \*\*MOL \*\*has observed, the reaction to \*\*any \*\*attempt to assert your right to be treated like a person is frequently that you’re a bitch with an attitude: doesn’t matter if you’re angry or calmly assertive–you can’t appreciate why it’s so amazing to be looked at like a piece of meat, so something must be wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/595 "2009-08-27T20:01:24Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So, do I get to grab a firm handful of your ass in that group hug now? And _that_ thought will happily carry me through the rest of the day. … Crap, I just remembered which thread this is. Don’t beat me up! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/596 "2009-08-27T20:02:56Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So if it’s confirmation of what you already know, coming from a skeezy guy, why does it have any effect on you whatsover? Because it’s not like I just hold these opinions of myself in a vacuum. People who think they’re attractive usually do so because society also thinks so. A guy who checks me out or tells me I’m hot isn’t really any different from some rich businessman who tells me I’m hot, or whoever. A man is a man, you know? You make it sound like I’m walking around feeling depressed and insecure about my looks until Gropey McCreepy tells me he wants to do things to me that would make R. Crumb blush and then I light up in glee. It’s more like I put on something sexy and a guy notices and I think, Cool, I’ve still got it. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/597 "2009-08-27T20:40:44Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Crap, I just remembered which thread this is. Don’t beat me up! That costs extra. 😃 > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It’s more like I put on something sexy and a guy notices and I think, Cool, I’ve still got it. I dunno, it’s just so completely the antithesis of my own reaction that I can’t help but boggle. I can’t seem to figure out how that specific kind of attention could ever be seen as a positive reflection on me rather than a negative reflection on the guy. Of course, I’m sure I’m projecting my own experience onto my reading of this, since as previously mentioned, the only period where I took it as flattering was when I was a young girl who still hadn’t realized she was hot yet. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/598 "2009-08-27T21:07:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So, do I get to grab a firm handful of your ass in that group hug now? Yes. > [@](#): > > How am I supposed to “be assertive” at a guy who’s hollering at me from a car? Turn around, hotwire one parked next to me, and chase after him, hoping to catch him at a stoplight? Ah, but you see, had you been carrying yourself with an “assertive” demeanor to begin with, he wouldn’t have yelled at you from a car at all. It’s your fault. Your body language screams “Victimize me!” Start walking about with a hatchet. And sneer a lot. No, smile. Wait, what was it we’re supposed to do again? > [@Bosstone](#): > > And _that_ thought will happily carry me through the rest of the day. > … > Crap, I just remembered which thread this is. Don’t beat me up! I’ll git you. And your little dog too! > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Because it’s not like I just hold these opinions of myself in a vacuum. People who think they’re attractive usually do so because society also thinks so. Could there possibly be a segment of society whose opinions matter less than those of chronic street-harassers? Scratch that, these are barely even opinions we’re talking about here. When a guy heckles you, do you believe he only does it to you or other “hot” women? I wish I could plant a camera on a catcallers hat and watch how many times, and how many types of women he harassed on a daily basis. > [@](#): > > A guy who checks me out or tells me I’m hot isn’t really any different from some rich businessman who tells me I’m hot, or whoever. A man is a man, you know? Okay. No one cares if the person is rich or not. I draw a clear distinction between someone telling me in a friendly manner that he finds me attractive, and a shitheel on the street yelling “Nice tits” from a car window. The former, I believe, is a reflection of my perceived attractiveness by the main paying you the compliment, the other is just pervo who shouts inappropriate comments at random women. Like I said earlier, one of the main differences between the way you and I view this issue is that I do not find this behavior to be complimentary in any way. This happens (in case you haven’t noticed) to women of varying levels of physical attractiveness. These people are indiscriminate sexists. It’s not a “They’re just letting me know I’m hot” scenario. It is not “confirmation” of my attractiveness, it is “confirmation” that the guy is an asshole. > [@](#): > > It’s more like I put on something sexy and a guy notices and I think, Cool, I’ve still got it See above. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/599 "2009-08-27T22:00:33Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > This, Idle Thoughts. Have you read the thread yet? Yes. And > [@](#): > > Oh please! This is a 10-foot-high crock of shit. Where is this widespread phenomenon of women harassing men daily on the street, screaming at them, whistling at them, following them in their cars, demanding their phone numbers, name-calling when ignored or rebuffed, making threats, both veiled and unveiled? Where is this town you seem to live in where it is common and somehow accepted that women routinely publicly demean men this way? If this were typical behavior, then yes, I’d be happy if one day a man snapped and just slapped one of the crazy bitches who did this to them. That doesn’t cut it for me. It doesn’t even have anything to do with what I asked, for one, but more on that later. For two, just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. For three, I’m not talking about “Screaming at them”, “following them in their cars”, “demanding their phone numbers”, “name-calling when ignored or rebuffed”, or “Making threats” of any kind. Like I just said, I don’t know where you got any of that or what it has to do with what I asked. From the OP article, I don’t see or know how you could know that was what the group of guys did either, so I have no idea why you’re giving gross assumptions. So I’ll state it again…if I have, in a single case scenerio such as the OP was about–WITHOUT piling on all the weight of OH THE HUGE MANATEE OF ALL THE VICTIMIZED WOMEN IN THE WORLD BY CATCALLS!!–Where I’m whistled at and catcalled a bit (which is all the OP was about)…I have the right to chase down a woman (or man, or kid) and beat the hell out of them while my friends hold them? A simple yes or no would suffice. If yes, that’s all I wanted to know. If no, why is it okay that these girls did it, in your mind? Enough that you’re praising them? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/600 "2009-08-27T22:17:40Z")
Idle Thoughts: Context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=31)