# Women (over)react to catcalling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120 "2009-08-20T20:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/661 "2009-09-01T16:25:51Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Maybe he could come teach us, 'cause he totally knows better. Maybe he could pat us on the head if we get it right. Maybe we could get a treat! Oh boy oh boy, I love treats! Pant pant pant, wag tail wag tail. Someone trying to give you helpful advice is the same as them treating you like a dog? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/662 "2009-09-01T16:26:29Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Someone trying to give you helpful advice is the same as them treating you like a dog? In what way do you think this advice is helpful? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/663 "2009-09-01T16:27:09Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’m going to extend a standing offer to any of you assholes who think I get harassed 'cause I’m some meek little slip of a girl to come meet me. I guarantee you won’t be able to sustain that mistaken impression for more than five seconds. Seriously, aren’t you, like 6’ tall? I think you said so earlier, but I’m not going to flip back through this thread to find out. I’m not that tall, but I’d extend a similar invitation. Perhaps that guy from the Twin Cities area who informed me with absolute certainty that street harassment simply does not occur here (as he verified at his Sexy Lady meetings wherein the women make it explicitly clear to him that they are never harassed on the street) can come out with me. We can do lunch! And if anything about me suggests passive or diminutive, I’ll buy. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/664 "2009-09-01T16:31:01Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > In what way do you think this advice is helpful? Serious question. I can’t speak to how helpful the advice actually is, but **tdn** clearly wasn’t coming from a bad place. There wasn’t much need to be snotty about it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/665 "2009-09-01T16:35:15Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > In what way do you think this advice is helpful? Serious question. I’ve explained that in the past 14 pages, but bottom line is – If something’s not working for you, try something else. Not to compromise who you are, or permanently change your behavior, or to solve every problem in every situation – just to see if it makes any difference at all. You know, fighting ignorance and such. Of course, the resounding response to that has been “That’s stupid, nothing will ever work, and you’re sexist.” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/666 "2009-09-01T16:36:25Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I can’t speak to how helpful the advice actually is, but **tdn** clearly wasn’t coming from a bad place. There wasn’t much need to be snotty about it. Thank you. This turned out to be a really bad thread for people just wanting to help. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/667 "2009-09-01T16:37:35Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Someone trying to give you helpful advice is the same as them treating you like a dog? Someone giving patronizing advice that necessarily presupposes that the unknown man on the internet has a more accurate idea of our own attitudes than us woman ourselves, yes. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Seriously, aren’t you, like 6’ tall? Ayup. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/668 "2009-09-01T16:38:42Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Someone giving patronizing advice that necessarily presupposes that the unknown man on the internet has a more accurate idea of our own attitudes than us woman ourselves, yes. Any time someone gives you advice it means that they know more than you/are smarter than you? I’m starting to think that all this strong, hard, tall woman stuff is cover for a serious insecurity complex. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/669 "2009-09-01T16:38:46Z")
tdn, are you fucking serious? We haven’t said it “will” never work, we’ve said it \*hasn’t \*worked. It \*doesn’t \*work. As in, it’s been attempted, and has _failed_. The response is, “I know in your crazy magic world, all women have to do is behave a little differently, and it’ll stop, but that’s not the case” plus “And why the fuck should I have to change myself in the first pace?” Get it? Edit: > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Any time someone gives you advice it means that they know more than you/are smarter than you? I’m starting to think that all this strong, hard, tall woman stuff is cover for a serious insecurity complex. You’re right, she’s actually 5’3" and doesn’t so much walk as she does limp along while weeping quietly. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/670 "2009-09-01T16:39:00Z")
If a dog bares it’s teeth at you, you have two choices; Stand up to the dog, make him back down, never let him make you a victim! Step back, maybe avoid a nasty bite. It seems obvious to me that how you choose to act is going to be, largely, determined by a few simple factors. How big is the dog? How big are you? Is there an exit so you can just sidestep this danger or do you have no choice but to stand and fight? Few are the women capable of overpowering a mid sized man. (Few are the people capable of overpowering a bull mastif!). Throw in that men are often multiple in number while the object of attention numbers only one. Testosterone stoked men, in a group, behaving overtly sexually. Yeah, I’m sure they’re going to respond really well be being called out. The history of the world would say aggression will be met will aggression over 90% of the time, but whatever. I weigh 100lbs soaking wet, I am not taking on any snarling dogs and I am not responding to catcalls with aggression or assertion. Why? Because I have a brain in my head. And if you think women expressing how they feel about this, in a thread on topic, is whining and enjoying victimhood you’re an ass. The sort of immaturity you’re demonstrating is the exact root of the problem. Evolve already, would ya? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/671 "2009-09-01T16:40:09Z")
I don’t think either **tdn** or **Yeticus** are coming from a bad place. I think they’re genuinely trying to understand the situation, and offer ideas on how to make it better. But I think **Yeticus** in particular is wide, wide of the mark on what IS helpful. Harrassment of women in public spaces _is not about the women_. They’re the catalyst, but their behavior or self-worth or what-have-you is entirely incidental. Even using the word “victim” is kind of stupid in this, because the harrassment I’ve received has no impact whatsoever on my perception of myself. There is nothing – I repeat: NOTHING – any female can do to alleviate the situation other than magically not have tits and a snatch. Me saying so does not mean that I think all women are helpless, powerless “victims” in the face of harassment. It means that I acknowledge that this happens, it sucks, I want it it to change, but there is not a goddamned thing I can or should do differently. I am a woman. I go out in public. That’s literally all it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/672 "2009-09-01T16:48:24Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Any time someone gives you advice it means that they know more than you/are smarter than you? Do you have problems with reading comprehension? Someone giving advice \*\*that presupposes I’m a moron \*\*means that they think they know better than me. \*\*Yeticus \*\*clearly meant well, but the entirety of his advice seems to amount to, “This is what I think you should do, and it will work, so if you’ve done anything like it and it didn’t work, you weren’t doing it, you weren’t doing it right, or you weren’t doing it enough. Oh, and please disregard where my example of how you stop a bully directly contradicts what I’m telling you.” So yeah, that \*\*is \*\*insulting to my intelligence. Somebody who gets off on jackass guys telling her she’s hot has no place accusing \*\*me \*\*of being insecure. Edit on preview: **MOL** , I’m actually 4’9", with long hair that covers my face, but not the giant, heaving bosom I put on display underneath a corset. You were right about the weeping, though. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/673 "2009-09-01T16:48:39Z")
Maybe it would help if I clarified why I think the well-intended advice is unhelpful, by order of events: 1. Woman goes into public space 2. Man harrasses woman 3. Woman responds in whatever way seems to best suit the situation 4. [optional] Woman’s perception of herself is impacted by the interaction Yeticus and tdn’s advice might be helpful to someone for whom #4 is true. It is, however, entirely unrelated to #2 and #3. In fact, it sequentially comes AFTER #2 and #3. As far as I can tell, Yeticus and others believe that their advice somehow might short-circuit what happens between #1 and #2, or maybe between #2 and #3. But the reality is that IT WILL NOT. IT DOES NOT. Because, again, merely being female and in public suffices. Absolutely everything else is incidental. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/674 "2009-09-01T16:53:07Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > tdn, are you fucking serious? We haven’t said it “will” never work, we’ve said it \*hasn’t \*worked. It \*doesn’t \*work. As in, it’s been attempted, and has _failed_. The response is, “I know in your crazy magic world, all women have to do is behave a little differently, and it’ll stop, but that’s not the case” plus “And why the fuck should I have to change myself in the first pace?” > > Get it? I get that you’ve tried everything you can, nothing so far has worked, and it’s extremely frustrating. Is that close enough? Do you get that I’m not trying to patronize you but rather trying my best to help you? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/675 "2009-09-01T16:58:16Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Someone giving advice \*\*that presupposes I’m a moron \*\*means that they think they know better than me. Nobody has presupposed you are a moron. > [@](#): > > Somebody who gets off on jackass guys telling her she’s hot has no place accusing \*\*me \*\*of being insecure. We get off on jackass guys because we’re trying to help? I rescind my previous statement. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/676 "2009-09-01T17:00:27Z")
Not you, the lady who think it’s “nice” when knuggle-dragging morons on the street heckle her. It “confirms” her hotness. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/677 "2009-09-01T17:03:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Somebody who gets off on jackass guys telling her she’s hot has no place accusing \*\*me \*\*of being insecure. Um, you make it sound like I go home and jerk off to weirdos on the street. I’m just saying that I don’t see catcalls as the symbol of misogyny that you do. I just think, “Oh, nice,” and leave it at that. I certainly don’t get nearly as pissed or defensive as you’ve gotten in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/678 "2009-09-01T17:08:33Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Not you, the lady who think it’s “nice” when knuggle-dragging morons on the street heckle her. It “confirms” her hotness. Ah. My reading comprehension skills took a little vacation there. Sorry, **Shot From Guns**. ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/679 "2009-09-01T19:43:05Z")
I might as well also respond to Yeticus, because gosh, it’s just so damned tempting. > [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > No, I do get IT. In all honesty, I don’t think you do. Or rather, I’d say you get it only partially, but then in other ways you don’t get it at all. > [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > My wife and I work together as employers in the social services field, mainly working with adults with developmental disabilities. We serve both genders and assist them in learning daily living skills and job opportunities that everyone else takes for granted. My staff is about 90% women and 10% men. Of the women, about half of them are single moms, eeking out a living, and some putting up with crap from deadbeat dads, “boyfriends” who treat them like shit, and even some of the others have abusive husbands who are glad to be out of the house for a few hours out of the day. Over the years, I’ve personally helped relocate some of the mothers and abused wives to a safe place to live or grant them extra time off to arrange legal matters. I’ve even had to confront angry husbands/boyfriends who try to harass their wife/girlfriend at work and also had to involve law enforcement. I get it…sometimes it does suck to be a women. We even have staff meetings regarding harassment and abuse, both regarding our clients and our staff. Even had psych counselors give presentations and vital contacts to keep our staff safer and smarter on how to deal with questionable people in public as well as those abusers they share a roof with. > > Other times, my employees just want an ear to listen. Sometimes, they do want advice. What I do (IF they ask for it) advise them on is to focus or redirect on WHAT POSITIVE THINGS THEY DO HAVE, rather than submerging themselves in the role of Victim, and they tend to personally get better, sooner. I do not want a pat on the back for what I have done in the past here, that is not why I am posting this. I would hopefully receive the same treatment from if the roles were reversed. Why I am posting this is that I do acknowledge that life can suck for anyone, both men and women, but what I will not acknowledge is that a victim must remain a victim because of one’s gender. The things we have done in the past has helped them avoid putting themselves in danger in the present and future. I find it very ironic that you use women in crises as example of why women have to do more to challenge the bad behavior of boorish men. It’s a funny thing, but I’ve used those exact same types of examples to show insensitive men that women who are already burdened with personal trauma and abuse are the ones who are least able to deal with the added burden of an abusive stranger. Women who’ve been beaten, raped, or are losing their homes and incomes, are not at their best for dealing with catcalls and rude strangers. Also, if she has a pounding migraine, or her father just died, or she just got laid off, or she’s just been raped, or her sick kid is in the hospital, or her boyfriend/husband just pounded her, or she just found out she has breast cancer, etc., etc., etc., all those are times when she’s least likely to have radar that functions properly, least likely that she can confront a stranger, least likely that she can think fast to avoid a bad encounter with a stranger. I think women in crises already have enough on their plate and wouldn’t ever suggest they need to do more just because rude men who harass women are a bunch of dumb shits. And I would suggest that anyone who gets the urge to lecture a woman about how she needs to do more should instead direct his/her attention to the men who harass the women. I mean, you could spend an entire lifetime educating clueless men about it, and never run out of idiots who need to be enlightened. > [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Complaining about not feeling good because someone else made you sick is not helping you get better, it just makes you a complainer. Conversely I find that men who harass women and then call us names, and want to hurt women for not responding favorably, _those_ men are the “complainers” who perceive themselves as victims. Those men are really the whiney ones with the “poor me” attitudes who feel sorry for themselves. That’s why they get angry and want to punish women, because they are emotionally immature babies\* who feel victimized by being ignored and rebuffed. If you really want to give someone the “don’t be a victim” spiel, those men who harass women are in need of it far more than the women they harass. Those clueless men need to be informed that strange women have no obligation to them, don’t owe them any acknowledgment or gratitude, and are not on this earth to compensate for the fact that they can’t adequately take care of their own emotions. And again, you could spend a lifetime… \*no offense to immature babies is intended. In fact, immaturity in babies is expected, acceptable, and even very cute… not so much in grown men. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120/680 "2009-09-01T20:16:46Z")
> [@raindrop](#): > > If you really want to give someone the “don’t be a victim” spiel, those men who harass women are in need of it far more than the women they harass. Those clueless men need to be informed that strange women have no obligation to them, don’t owe them any acknowledgment or gratitude, and are not on this earth to compensate for the fact that they can’t adequately take care of their own emotions. And again, you could spend a lifetime… I agree 1000%. But I think you’re missing the point, or rather trying to make a completely different one. I don’t think anyone here is saying that if a woman gets harassed, it’s her fault. Not one person said that. We all agree that it’s the men that need to change, right? Right? And as I said before, if I could make all of the douchebags stop, I would. Would that I had that kind of power! But can we also agree that I will never in my life have that kind of power, nor will anyone else, that douchebags will always exist? The problem isn’t going away, at least not very soon. So honest question, and take this in the most generic sense. You guys all agree that nothing ever works, ever, everything has been tried, and life in general sucks. What if there were some sort of strategy to cope with the douchebags – and stop your objections now – we’re just pretending – would it be worthwhile to at least find out what that might be? Once again this is not about assigning blame. NO ONE IS SAYING IT’S YOUR FAULT. But would it be worthwhile to know that such a strategy exists? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-over-react-to-catcalling/507120.md?page=35)