# Women, society, and democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504 "2004-06-09T18:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/21 "2004-06-10T06:44:14Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Well now \*\* lambchops\*\*, sweetheart, you make my point, viz… I’m a guy, sweetheart. Your points make no sense, even when stripped of the non sequiturs about babies, heart-shaped pools and real estate agents. If women are less logical than men, I’d hate to have an argument with your sister. Though I guess I wouldn’t have to contend with logical devices such as [the floating point system for establishing liberal bias ™.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=240201&) ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/22 "2004-06-10T06:49:00Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > …the prime purpose of the female of our species is to reproduce and then to raise her offspring until the age of reproduction. > > Other than a few other contributions to the collective knowledge of the human mindset, all other aspirations by the female are selfish and foolish and are nothing more than aberrant socially induced bullshit. So any other aspiration by a woman is bullshit? Can’t you, in your infinite wisdom, grant them a pretty dress, a bunch of flowers and a white wedding? All women want that. > [@](#): > > Believe me I know. I think it’s becoming increasingly obvious that you’ve never known a woman at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/23 "2004-06-10T06:57:45Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Ayn Rand? Good lord someone’s going to lynch me for saying that. Funnily enough, I hit “reply” as soon as I read the word “Ayn”… I think there have been many brilliant women in the past century - they just don’t get as much fanfare. Hell, name some famous MALE philosophers since 1900, **Millie**. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/24 "2004-06-10T07:26:12Z")
Ohmigod! I forgot to have children!!! > [@](#): > > …the prime purpose of the female of our species is to reproduce and then to raise her offspring until the age of reproduction. Only in some primal evolutionary sense. And on that level, the following is also true: The prime purpose of the male of our species is to reproduce and then to raise his offspring until the age of reproduction. Of course, most males and females have enough logic to figure out that human offspring actually need nurturing beyond the age of ten. And neither gender has been limited to these purposes for what – a hundred thousand years? “The Liberation” is not a date; it is a movement which continues for obvious reasons to the even mildly observant. Some female philosophers, present and past: [http://bailiwick.lib.uiowa.edu/wstudies/gallery.html](http://bailiwick.lib.uiowa.edu/wstudies/gallery.html) I’m curious. Haven’t you read the works of any of these women, Milum? What about other female philosophers not listed here? I live for the day when the kind of things that you post here about women are seen for what they are – just as hateful as speech which denigrates people of color or those who hold religious beliefs different to our own. ---
**Author:** ![Paladud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Paladud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paladud)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/25 "2004-06-10T08:25:45Z")
**Zoe** , that link of yours is questionable. If bell hooks (lack of capitalization her preference) is a philosopher, I am the Sultan of Brunei. She is just a mediocre writer with a chip on her shoulder the size of Khufu’s pyramid who likes to tell people how to live and tends to use the term ‘hedonistic consumerism’ about four times a page. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/26 "2004-06-10T10:51:33Z")
> [@Paladud](#): > > She is just a mediocre writer with a chip on her shoulder the size of Khufu’s pyramid who likes to tell people how to live and tends to use the term ‘hedonistic consumerism’ about four times a page. Sounds like a philosopher to me! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/27 "2004-06-10T15:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=Milum] 2. Name one great female philosophers…no, no, silly, I mean a great female philosophers of modern times. You know, like after the liberation./QUOTE] And being a great modern philosopher would prove one’s intelligence…how? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/28 "2004-06-10T15:57:34Z")
holdmytail: > [@](#): > > I don’t know how you’d define lesser but I do know that [Orthodox] Judaism sees the woman as mischevous, clever, and dangerous and therefore she must be controlled. Where do you get this from, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/29 "2004-06-10T16:04:50Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > 1. Name one great female philosophers…no, no, silly, I mean a great female philosophers of modern times. You know, like after the liberation. **Philosophers?** What so make-or-break about **philosophers?** Since the '60s we have multitudes of female scientists, technicians and engineers, female physicians, female attorneys, female accountants, female business executives, female military officers, etc., etc. I think their accomplishments are enough to prove that women are capable of “logic” and “abstract thought” – you can’t do any of these things if you can’t handle logic and abstract thought. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/30 "2004-06-10T16:10:59Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > 1. Now Braingutton, a word of advice, don’t you go insulting the intelligence of the subcribers to this board. It has always been an imperative of the female to provide for her young. This dire necessity translates to genetic materialism. > > How could it be otherwise? 🙂 Well and good, but this kind of “materialism” – the desire to provide some lasting material benefits for the next generation, rather than simply seeking the gain and pleasure of the moment – is exactly the kind of materialism we should **want** in a citizen, voter, or statesperson. Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/31 "2004-06-10T16:12:48Z")
My favorite 20th century female philosopher was GEM Anscombe, a student of Wittgenstein, who happens to be a favorite 20th century male philosopher. Catholic, common language philosopher. Very good reading. It is a shame she died, but we all do, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/32 "2004-06-10T21:53:09Z")
To get back to the subject for a moment: women had the right to vote in Iraq. Yes, they had the right to vote in Iraq. Like the men, the only person they were ever allowed to vote for (for president) was Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/33 "2004-06-10T22:13:53Z")
For the tangent - Hannah Arendt, probably best known for coining the phrase ‘the banality of evil’ at Eichmann’s trial, comes to mind. For the OP - It’s difficult to become a modern industrialized society when you deprive yourself of 50% of the brainpower and workforce by keeping them exclusively in a homemaker/childbearing/childrearing role. ---
**Author:** ![holdmytail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@holdmytail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holdmytail)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/34 "2004-06-11T03:29:50Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > holdmytail: > > Where do you get this from, exactly? The Gemara. A commentary on the Mishna written in Aramaic. It is a documentation of Rabbinical arguments on Jewish law and principles. It also states which Rabbi we(Jews) follow on each issue and why. I studied Gemara for two years in private school and had many discussions with my teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/35 "2004-06-11T04:12:02Z")
Suzanne Langer, author of _Philosophy in a New Key_, one of the most read philosophy books of the 20th century. Simone Weil, who redefined what it means to be a thinking Christian committed to social justice in the modern age. (I’m not Christian or even much interested in Christianity, but Simone Weil rocked. If there were more Christians like her…) Simone de Beauvoir, one of the leading Existentialist thinkers of the 20th century, next to Sartre. Milum, this isn’t Great Debates, and I should apologize to the other Dopers for following up your abysmally ignorant hijack, but you deserve to have your nose rubbed in the fact of your appalling ignorance for the nonsense you have been spewing. Regarding the OP: Research has shown that a country’s level of economic and social development, and quality of life, is tied to the level of women’s education and advancement in the professions. When I look through world literacy statistics and see how drastically women’s literacy lags behind men’s in far too many Muslim countries, I feel outraged and angry as a human being, and sad for the Muslims having hobbled themselves as a society for no reason at all. (The Prophet Muhammad said: Getting an education is required for everyone, male and female. The Muslims have shot themselves in the foot — no, shot themselves in the _head_ — by not educating women.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/36 "2004-06-11T04:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Is womens sufferage an inevitable result of the introduction of a democratic form of government? I can’t think of a Democracy that doesn’t have women’s sufferage, but the idea does seem to be a comparatively recent notion in some countries. There can certainly be a lot of differences between one Democracy and another. > [@](#): > > Will a democratic Iraq be forced to change it’s socio-religious conventions regarding the role of women in society? I have read somewhere that 1/3 of the civil positions under the rule of Saddam Hussein were held by women. I was disappointed to see that only 3 members of Iraq’s Governing Council were. If the socio-religious conventions regarding the role of women change, it won’t be because the United States has forced it to. There are already coalitions of Iraqi women working to see that changes come about in their country. I assume that they have the support of some of the men also. > [@](#): > > Can a culture that treats females as lesser people fully become a functioning member of western world society? Parts of American culture continues to treat females as lesser people – often unconsciously. Some consider us to be a fully functioning member of Western world society. I think that we are a _misfunctioning_ member of world society, but that only part of that misfunction is the result of a lack of balance between the sexes. And even that is just opinion. I was watching a tape of the world leaders walking together on the beach off the coast of Georgia on the news tonight. I couldn’t help but wonder if the world would be different if these men had more experience in one-on-one nurturing. Or would things be different if they had carried another human being inside them? Would things be different if they could talk about feelings more easily? What if they hadn’t played “soldiers” as children? What if they actually reflected the physical makeup of people on the earth? First, they would start with a Mandarin woman… ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/37 "2004-06-11T04:26:16Z")
> [@holdmytail](#): > > The Gemara. A commentary on the Mishna written in Aramaic. It is a documentation of Rabbinical arguments on Jewish law and principles. It also states which Rabbi we(Jews) follow on each issue and why. I studied Gemara for two years in private school and had many discussions with my teacher. Ok, could you provide a cite for your interpretation of this theology? Chapter and verse of the original, or perhaps some academic analyses? ---
**Author:** ![holdmytail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@holdmytail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holdmytail)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/38 "2004-06-11T04:29:33Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > Ok, could you provide a cite for your interpretation of this theology? Chapter and verse of the original, or perhaps some academic analyses? No, I can’t. I don’t own a Gemara. Also, this is just the way it was taught to me in an Orthodox private school so it doesn’t quite reflect the views of most Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/39 "2004-06-11T04:32:16Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > Regarding the OP: Research has shown that a country’s level of economic and social development, and quality of life, is tied to the level of women’s education and advancement in the professions. When I look through world literacy statistics and see how drastically women’s literacy lags behind men’s in far too many Muslim countries, I feel outraged and angry as a human being, and sad for the Muslims having hobbled themselves as a society for no reason at all. (The Prophet Muhammad said: Getting an education is required for everyone, male and female. The Muslims have shot themselves in the foot — no, shot themselves in the _head_ — by not educating women.) Ok, this has been the case in many Muslim countries, but lower literacy levels amongst women would be far less evident in Iraq. The government was secular in nature, and had an unexpectedly high regard for women’s rights and education (this is not to say it wasn’t a murderous and repressive regime). Muslims haven’t got much to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504/40 "2004-06-11T04:34:36Z")
**Paladud** , I’m not very familiar with hooks’s work except to know that she certainly tackles _big_ subjects. I’ve seen several references to her as a “philosopher,” including an _Encyclopaedia Britannica_ article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/women-society-and-democracy/249504.md?page=3)