Women - why won't you EVOLVE?!

So a few thousand years ago, a naked woman was tricked into eating a piece of magic fruit by a talking snake, and therefore childbirth is painful? :rolleyes:

I wouldn’t be sure that animals don’t experience pain when giving birth. It might not look like it to us, since they just seem to lie still and get it over with, as robinh said. But that’s how most animals seem to react to pain.

I do think too much is made by women of the pain involved. Not to say that it isn’t extremely painful, but jeez, it wasn’t too long ago that the chances of the mother surviving childbirth were fairly low. Put it in perspective!

What Robinh says is correct.

As for why we haven’t evolved to correct this…evolution only happens when some trait makes an animal more successful at surviving, or less successful. Since women are able to successfully have babies whether they have pain or not, there is nothing to stop “poor” birthers from continuing to make offspring that would potentially be a “poor” birther. Our “enlightened” cultures and societies have basically taken natural selection out of the equation. Stupid people can breed. People with “poor” genes can breed. Just about eveyone can breed. And if they aren’t capable of taking care of themselves, often times, the rest of humanity will. Thus allowing those “poor” genes to continue on.

But we HAVE evolved in ways that make us successful dispite our difficult births.

Another thing to consider about the “design” of an organism. We are very versitile. Moreso than many creatures. Our brains are very adaptable, our bodies are capable of a great range of motion. But we pay for this versitility. We aren’t as strong, fast, or have as good of senses as many species. Our bodies design also makes childbirth painful. The alternative would be WIDE hips on women…which would be very restrictive on movement, or our children would have to be born even LESS developed than they already are. As it stands now, ther are fairly premature as it is (compaired to other animals)

Max brings an interesting point. About how painful IS childbrith. Animals deal with pain very well compaired to us. And in my experience, women deal with it worse than men. Every woman I know aside from my Mother and Aunt scream bloody mercy if they so much as get a scratch. And my Mother and Aunt both said their births were fairly painless.

So, perhaps it’s all relative. Maybe much of the pain in childbirth is due to the fact that we humans don’t handle pain so well.

Just like Myopia (nearsightedness) we have adapted to crappy selections. Painful birth is a selection that re-enforces woman as second citizen class (with a kudo from religion helping). So sorry but that is the way it is.

ALWAYS INSIST ON MORPHINE OR MORPHINE-ANALOGS. that’ll stop that crap!

Gee, glad you weren’t my labor coach (“come on, get a grip, I know its painful, but at least your chances of dying are slim”).

Don’t get me wrong, the decrease in maternal mortality is a high point in history in my opinion (although you could define “fairly low,” I don’t know of any time in history when your chances of surviving were what I would consider "fairly low). It just really isn’t related to the pain issue.

OK, where to start??

Most ridiculous question first. JustinH, the difficulty of the birth depends mainly on the size of the baby’s skull (and positioning of the fetus) vs. the opening size in the birth canal. That is a feature of the pelvis, i.e. solid bone. The size of the wings of the pelvis (outside part of the bone) don’t matter, and the amount of fatty tissue on the outside of the bone certainly doesn’t make jack difference. Sheesh. And, fat woman does not necessarily mean fat baby, unless fat woman is also diabetic, which most are not.

As to whether women are making it up…how could you possibly presume to know another person’s pain! Why would they make it up? I know several women (including my own mother) who said that labor with one baby was long and excruciating, while labor with another was quick and much easier. Could this be a great conspiracy theory? Lie about birthpain with one baby, but not another, to keep the Big Lie going? :rolleyes:

Have to agree with those who pointed out that painful birth does not select those people out. So long as baby survives, and mama survives to breed again, a couple days’ pain wouldn’t make any evolutionary difference. Also, women have not had any kind of choice in the number of children desired until VERY recently in human history. The idea of women “choosing to have fewer babies because it hurts” doesn’t fly, because there was no useful birth control.

PS- I had a scheduled C-section, so no labor at all for me. :smiley: However, I have also heard the related idea that menstrual pain is a sham, and I can tell you that it is the worst pain I have ever experienced, worse than slamming my hand in the car door, worse than breaking my wrist. Some of my friends have “minor discomfort” and that’s all…and my horrific cramps did ease quite a bit as I got older. (Meaning over 25.) I have also heard that those who have horrible menstrual cramps have less trouble with labor, as they know what it feels like and can handle it. I wouldn’t know.

So, sghoul, how many men do you know who have gone through childbirth to run this comparison?

(yeah, I know that isnt what you meant by “it,” you meant pain, not childbirth).

I’m told that childbirth pain is similar to passing a stone. I’ve done the first, but not the second. However, a male friend did get hospitalized so they could drip the heavy drugs in him while he passed his kidney stone.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MGibson *
**
[QUOTE

I guess because there’s no reason to change. Despite the difficulties people are still being born and living long enough to reproduce. Apparantly the difficulty in giving birth hasn’t had a negative affect on the survivability of the species.

Marc **[/QUOTE]

That’s it in a nutshell. Look/debate no further.

For painless labor to evolve, one must see that those women with lower amounts of labor pains would reproduce more and more successfully, thereby giving their genes a numeric advantage that would continue to expand and have the chance to reproduce.

Actually, given human compassion, painful labor might have intensified the bond the male and his mate feel when having a child. The bond might have increased the security of the relationship between the parents, which in turn would be beneficial to the survival of the offspring. The mother might require recovery and rest, which the male helped with. These are potential good things that could arise from a painful delivery.

I’m not putting forth any great theories, but when considering why something (like painful labor) survived, you have to consider it might have some inherent benefits…maybe benefits that were exclusive or semi-exclusive to humans/pre-humans.
In other words, painful labor is put forth as detrimental, when the theories should build upon the notion that it was beneficial.

  1. Evolution has handled even bad births very well in some sneaky ways – ever hear of ‘birth amnesia’ (“you won’t remember the pain”)? How about mothers saying ‘I’d do it all again, it was worth it’ – brain chemicals evolve, too. Love them endorphins, and oh, how about oxytocin and estradiol, both of which also contribute to the ‘scr*w the pain, I’d do it again for a baby’ response.

  2. “Pure” evolution is confounded by medicine, technology, society, and culture. 11 lb babies used to die or kill their mothers or both. Now we c-section. Women can have multiple babies (regardless of difficult births) by choice, not because it is easy, but because they survived, and want children for other reasons. Other women have easy smooth short labors but may only have one child, not because it was hard, but for other reasons. A really bad labor experience can be moderated by medicine, making a difficult birth no longer a deciding factor in decision-making regarding reproduction, nor in results of the labor (dead baby or mother). Even if evolution happened that fast, these would really mess with the progress of it.

  3. Birth is already highly evolved in humans. There’s not much room for error at this stage – if head size increases much more, pelvic size changes to accommodate would make it hard to walk effectively. It is currently a fair balance between wide hip-joint placement (allowing for larger pelvic opening) and mechanics of birth. For instance, the clever spiral the baby does on the way out – starting sideways to fit the head into the pelvic opening, turning to get the shoulders through, turning again to get head and shoulders through the birth canal with the least damage. And also the loosening of the pelvic joints (the one in front, and the two in back) to allow the pelvis to flex and open to increase the size of the passage. (trust me, those joints can really MOVE once they loosen – I’m a limping testiment to that right now, at 6 days from baby 2’s due date!) Not to mention baby head joints not being solid (allowing for cranial molding/cone-head, making the baby smaller temporarily), and babies being born extremely early in development compared to other species. Sounds pretty damn evolved, to me.

  4. Labor and birth may not be biologically set up to be agonizing. Animal models indicate that labor runs from slightly uncomfortable to relatively painful under normal conditions, but not the screaming agony so often depicted in media presentations. And animals haven’t evolved past that despiteplenty of time to do so – there doesn’t seem to be much reason to go beyond that level (you don’t want it so easy that they babies fall out before they are done cooking, right? And as has been stated, freedom from pain is not the same as survival.).

There are theories abounding about why labor is so painful in modern times, many having to do with ‘we made it that way’ – NOT biological, but cultural/social, etc. In fairly ancient times (Greek antiquity, say), normal labor wasn’t seen as such a terror, though abnormal labor certainly was, and there was also the risk of death, nothing to sneeze at, as far as anxiety is concerned. Soranus and Hypocrates recommended only minor pain meds, such as willow (aspirin) and hemp (y’all know what that is) for normal labor, (plus non-medicinal support such as bags of warm oil used as both compresses and body support)… and even Pliny the Elder (who dealt with a lot more of the folk-medicine approach) discusses wide varieties of relief methods for extended or abnormal labors, and barely mentions normal ones (at least not that I can find). Soranus very explicitly states that emotional support, reassurance, and encouragement ease labor immensely, and specifically instructs midwives to sit before the woman on the birth chair and tell her the birth will be easy, in order to ease the process. (Soranus: Gyn. 2.3.5, 4.2.2., according to the most scholarly paper on the topic I can find) The worst labors according to Soranus being those of women who didn’t believe they were pregnant in the first place, or those who were anxious, fearful, angry, or emotionally upset. Severe pain, therefore, may be largely a result of expectations and personal reactions at the time (though I woudn’t say always, certainly!). Stress makes pain worse, expecting pain makes one stressed, fear of pain makes one stressed, etc. The whole Dr. Grantley Dick-Read natural childbirth thing (fear-tension-pain cycle). Just by being self-aware creatures, we can make labor worse. Animals have it easier because they don’t ‘know better’, not because they necessarily handle pain better in some biological way.

Personally, I never expected birth to be painful. It wasn’t, as long as I kept out of the way and let my body do its thing. Not comfortable, either, but far from being an agony (gas pains from eating nothing but ice chips and popsicles were worse, trust me!). Labor was welcome, expected, and anticipated to be effort, not pain. By comparison, a miscarriage at 8 weeks, which I fought both physically and emotionally, hurt like bloody freaking hell. If I were an animal, I wouldn’t have been fighting it, and it probably wouldn’t have hurt so bad. Experiences vary widely (as noted by Dangerosa), but reasonable/tolerable labors seem to me to be fairly common even among women who expect worse, and far from enough to cause an evolutionary swing of any sort (by, say women killing themselves rather than do it again).

Using the animal model, birth isn’t excruciating - though if you’ve ever watched a dog or cat birth, and you know anything about how animals cope with discomfort, you’d say it isn’t a pleasant happy pleasurable experience, even if not agonizing. Dogs pant and sometimes yelp with the pup’s expulsion. Cats purr (a sign of stress, not happiness). “Ouch,” not “SHRIEK!” The animal model is that labor is hard work, uncomfortable, and may be painful, but isn’t an agony. Agony is a result of fear/distress/anxiety or of abnormal labor process, or of a specific set of personal conditions including pelvic proportion, positioning of the fetus, and pain threshold. Most of that is not terribly relevant to evolution, except as a side factor of our intellect and self-awareness – we’re able to reason enough to get in the way of the process, or to repeat a negative process because of a positive outcome (baby).

Under animal model conditions, evolutionarily speaking, birth experience is hardly a hindrance to the species. Add a technology/skill like hypnosis/relaxation, or pain meds, and you’ve got quite a good shot at a vastly more pleasant experience than you’ll see on TV, and hardly something to impact us as a species.

IMHO, evolution in humans is way too complex to even ask the questions in the OP, even if pain was a determining factor in evolution (which is doesn’t seem to be). And besides, I don’t think the assumptions behind the question are that valid, either (birth as agony).

Wow, hedra. That was a hell of a post, with some really valuable information. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

sirjamesp, do you really think that evolution is a voluntary act?

I’m still trying to figure out what the hell peanut butter, coal and jellied eels have to do with childbirth.

hedra wrote:

But then why is the human gestation period so much longer than in other placental mammals? I mean, come on, nine whole months?!

Um, I understand elephants take 20-22 months. I’ll take a nice short 9 months any day, thanks.

Oh! Max, I love the rolling eyes and the sarcasm! It’s so refreshing!!

You know…you almost have it there…let me add a few things to your observation… :wink:

So a few thousand years ago, a naked woman was tricked (she wasn’t tricked…she made a decision) into eating a piece of magic fruit ** (nah, it wasn’t magic…just not on her nutritional plan …the owner of the garden where she was staying told her to not to eat from that particular tree)* by a talking snake (don’t give the snake so much credit…he just knew what her weakness was), and therefore childbirth is painful? (well, there is a little more involved like an Almighty God the Creator of Heaven and Earth and the consequences of sin…but, you were close there!!)

Good Job, Max…I just had to fill in a few details that you had left out! :rolleyes:

Sorry, I had to roll mine too for the fun of it! LOL

I apologize to all for my attitude here…it’s not my normal behavior…please believe me…I just couldn’t help myself!

I was appreciating the points made by all as this thread was progressing…not agreeing with…but, that’s ok too! Maybe, I just have my feelings on my shoulder tonight. Somehow, I let Max’s post make me feel as if he was “making fun of me”. Silly me, I know…we are grown-ups here…we wouldn’t do that, intentionally!

Well, enough said…you all can go back to discussing why women haven’t evolved!! LOL

Blimey, hedra, that’s a massive post - and it sounds like the answer I was groping around for. Consider me educated - thanks! Incidentally, when I ask this question of girls in the pub, I tend to get a barrage of abuse or an evil glare, but never an answer like that. I can’t think why…

Other comments:

Because I’m a bloke. It is my birthright to make sweeping (and insulting) assumptions, so there.

Nope, not really, hence the “;)” in the OP. What I couldn’t see was why evolution hadn’t resulted in a pain-free birth.

But come on women, I’m sure with a bit of effort a quick bit of smart evolution wouldn’t be beyond you. Well, except for all points raised earlier in this thread about just why evolution is irrelevant here. Oh yes, and the fact that there hasn’t been enough time anyway. Not forgetting of course that we’ve been messing with evolution anyway. Erm, and that some women don’t find it particularly painful. And a passing mention should go to the problem of Eve eating forbidden fruit willy-nilly. But apart from all of that - chop chop!

See! That’s the spirit!

And I’ll get on with evolving a tail so I can whip the toilet-seat down when leaving the bathroom.

I’d say we ARE evolving to deal with the problem. The average human brain is quite a bit smaller than it was 25,000 years ago.

yeah, well, I do wish I’d had time to edit down for length, still…

tracer - gestation is 9 months in part because of size (mammals around our size take around our gestation time, larger animals generally take longer, smaller ones take less time: Human- 266-280 days, dolphin- 276 days, horse - 337 days, elephant - 640 days, sheep - 147 days, rat - 21 days, etc.), and partly because there’s a lot of prep needed to make a human baby survivable at that ‘stage’ of development - especially organ and brain growth and fat deposits (much of the last two months is dedicated to lung maturity, brain development, and fat deposits). Primates and monkeys also tend to take longer, even by body size (chimps - 237 days, Rhesus monkey - 147 days despite being similar in size to a dog, which is 63 days). Presumably they’ve got to develop more of the brain and dexterity requirements early on (hand/finger use, say). Cellular development only goes so fast, so gestation is largely related to mass. Kittens don’t take long, but a human doesn’t take long to get to that size, either. Just because we’re born early in our development (size and maturity-wise), doesn’t mean that we are simple critters to develop.

If you want a really good book on the subject of what goes on in development, check out Life Before Birth: The Challenges of Fetal Development, by Graham Mont Sir Liggins. Some amazing shit has to happen to get us ready for the ‘outside’ world.

And sirjamesp, if you asked me that question in a pub, I’d probably assume you were just a jerk and ignore you. Good thing you asked here! (And now you’ll have to come up with a new annoying question to prove your clueless-about-women guyhood in pubs.)


And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

**
This reminds me…before they ate the ‘fruit of knowledge of good and evil’ how did they know it was wrong to eat the fruit? I mean, just because god said “don’t eat it”? If they didn’t KNOW it was good or evil to disobey god (because they hadn’t had that fruit yet!) then why would they get blamed for disobeying? Before they ate the fruit they didn’t know it was wrong to disobey god.**