# "Women's Rights" blog says: virtual sexual assault should be a criminal act **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376 "2010-01-25T17:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/1 "2010-01-25T17:02:13Z")
[Ruth Fertig](http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view/virtual_sexual_assault), writing for the [womensrights.change.org](http://womensrights.change.org) site, says: > [@](#): > > On Monday, Australia’s Daily Telegraph reported that a woman had been the victim of an “online sexual assault” while playing the Playstation game, Home. > > The story broke after her roommate complained on the game’s online forum: “This morning I learned that my roommate was sexually assaulted near the Festive Tree … She would move and the harasser would follow. Each time trying to get behind her and use the crouch gesture … The harasser was warned multiple times and laughed at the thought that someone might report him for his actions, which was eventually done.” The woman’s roommate went on to suggest that Playstation institute everything from virtual restraining orders to Home Jails to “automatic tomato guns” to deal with virtual assaults. In the meantime, the victim left the game and was not sure whether she would ever want to return. She goes on to say that > [@](#): > > I don’t want to imply that virtual assault is the same thing as sexual assault by any stretch of the imagination, and I don’t think it was wise for the woman’s roommate to refer to it as such. However, I would argue that it is a form of sexual harrassment, which can be incredible distressing for its victims. And concludes by saying > [@](#): > > By the way, although I am reasonably certain that virtual assault will never be prosecuted as sexual assault, a legal expert quoted in the Telegraph article said it may be prosecuted in the future under stalking or privacy laws (at least in Australia). So there may be a way to get these scumbags off the virtual streets, after all. I am not sure I see how even stalking charges might apply if the object of the stalk is an avatar, with no threat of a physical connection to a real person. But I don’t play these games, so maybe I’m missing something. ETA: the title should say “harassment” instead of assault. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/2 "2010-01-25T17:07:16Z")
I think this is silly. The only thing at a stake is the emotional state of the person being harassed. They should suck it up. Just like theft in an online game shouldn’t be considered larceny in real life, neither should harassment be a crime. If criminal courts got involved, then the games would simply be untenable. You just wouldn’t be able to have MMOs at all. The game should have mods, or you should simply stop playing the game if the mods are not to your liking. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/3 "2010-01-25T17:16:04Z")
Beyond absurd. To be sure there are jerks in any online game and they certainly harass other players. Generally this is best solved by the Game Masters (GMs). They can apply a variety of online punishments to the people who do this. While annoying anyone sitting at home who switches this to actual sexual harassment in their head has issues of their own. They need to stop playing the game and seek professional help. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/4 "2010-01-25T17:22:10Z")
Yeah, this sound kinda silly, as it’s a game, and any corrective action should come from the moderators. But I can see some legal issues cropping up in other situations as we spend more and more of our time in cyberspace. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/5 "2010-01-25T17:25:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > They need to stop playing the game and seek professional help. The column mentions this factor, but with (obviously) a different take on it: > [@](#): > > And let’s not forget that the virtual world is full, like the real world, of people who actually _have_ been raped, and online assault, though it may do no direct physical damage, can act as a trigger for flashbacks, panic attacks, and assorted traumatic thoughts and emotions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/6 "2010-01-25T17:26:10Z")
Some of voodoo works like how it was described in the OP. An spiritual or in this case virtual act of sexual assault can be imposed on another. If the victim has issues related to sexual assault, even from childhood and or repressed that person has a open door for such exploitation, and can bring back the feelings of the past event. In this case the victim is pretty helpless, which if that relates to her past can trigger real issues. While such situations can be intentionally set up by the person doing it, it is normally not his intent to traumatize. We have all experienced what we assumed to be a harmless joke, to really hurt deeply someone. That is similar, there are issues that the joke has brought up, while the intent was nowhere near that. This woman has been given a opportunity to find out why it bothered her so much, to hunt out the root cause and be healed, or to run and hide, and to blame this person for what was done to her long ago by someone else IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/7 "2010-01-25T17:28:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But I can see some legal issues cropping up in other situations as we spend more and more of our time in cyberspace. In games where the in-game stuff can have a real world value I could see in-game theft being considered actual theft. Note that most online games have items (money, special items, etc.) that have a real world value but that is outside the game’s mechanics. I play EVE Online and everything in the game is contractually the property of the game developer. People selling stuff outside the game is against the rules. Since the developer owns it you cannot seek reparations in court for an in-game theft. Most games work like that but some have developed a model where in-game stuff has an intended real-world value. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/8 "2010-01-25T17:30:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The column mentions this factor, but with (obviously) a different take on it: > > > [@](#): > > > > And let’s not forget that the virtual world is full, like the real world, of people who actually have been raped, and online assault, though it may do no direct physical damage, can act as a trigger for flashbacks, panic attacks, and assorted traumatic thoughts and emotions. So can music and books and TV shows and movies. How far should we contort ourselves to avoid inadvertently upsetting someone? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/9 "2010-01-25T17:50:35Z")
The “flashback/trigger” argument comes up a lot on certain blogs/sites–for both rape and eating disorder triggers. In fact on some sites, they’ll ask you not to post your measurements/or weight and height when talking about food or eating issues (or edit them out) because they could be triggering. I’ve seen stuff like [this](http://www.blogcdn.com/www.streetlevel.com/media/2009/11/alanna2.jpg) mentioned as being triggering for rape victim, or [this](http://www.celebritysweating.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dolce-gabbana-rape-sweat.jpg). I’ve seen people talk about an ad where a man is giving a woman a “I really want to do you!” look (IN AN AD) and a woman posting about how seeing this ad in public made her feel unsafe as a woman alone, and blah blah blah rape culture. I’m all for sensitivity but sometimes it goes a little too far. How do these people walk out into the world without getting mind raped? ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/10 "2010-01-25T18:12:34Z")
Step 1: Contact a game GM, report the harrasser, providing a clear description of what was happening. Include the names of witnesses, of anyone volunteers to substantiate the claim. Step 2: Log out. It’s only fun for this guy because he found someone that was obviously bothered by his actions. It’s upsetting the woman because she has to watch what is going on. So shut down the computer and walk away for a while. The guy will be bored and move on. Sony would be idiots if they don’t respond to this. They do not want to get a reputation for having this going on or they will be losing customers. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/11 "2010-01-25T18:54:36Z")
Sony is a lousy game management company, or at least they were when I left SOE games for WoW and COX. That said, the place to deal with in game harassment is–in game. Every mmorg I’ve played has some mechanism for reporting abusive/harassing conduct. There are also sometimes…self help mechanisms…available. In Everquest, some asshole started stealing my kills while I was trying to level a lower-level toon. Fine and dandy. I switched over to my raid level Druid, and just happened to see the harassing player looking for a teleport, something Druids are able to provide. So, without revealing Oak as the “big brother” of the “newbie” this guy harassed earlier, I grouped with him and agreed to teleport him. At this point is should be observed that the harassing player was a drow elf. Drow are evil, and generally killed on sight by the guards in all of the good-aligned areas. Druids, in addition to being generally awesome, had the ability to “bind souls”–meaning they can fix the location a killed player will re-spawn after a death. So Oak grouped with this evil drow, and teleported him right next to the Druid Trainer in Surefall Glade–bastion of Druidic goodness. I got the bind off right as the Druid Trainer killed the guy for the first time. A few seconds pass…and the asshole Drow respawns…right next to the Druid Trainer, who kills him again. This went on for several minutes, and Surefall Glade was littered with Drow corpses. Did I mention that in Everquest, each death carried a penalty of lost experience points, and that it was entirely possible to lose one or more levels by dying repeatedly? Guy sent me several unflattering /tells, finally demanding “WHY?”. I reminded him of his prior misconduct towards what he thought was a defenseless newbie. Then I placed him on ignore. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/12 "2010-01-25T18:59:20Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m all for sensitivity but sometimes it goes a little too far. How do these people walk out into the world without getting mind raped? They can’t because they are not dealing with the root cause, but only looking at the trigger person and assigning blame to him and sometimes herself, sometimes God. It is like someone put a ‘kick me’ sign on her back, and when she goes outside people kick her, which she files assault charges against, and these people get thrown in jail, yet it keeps happening, making her reluctant to go outside. Until she is ready to walk through the original issue and discover that a person put that sign on her and remove it, it will continue. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/13 "2010-01-25T19:08:27Z")
Certainly I can sexually harrass someone over the phone, or with lewd emails or via skype or whatever. I don’t really see how a online game is any different then other forms of remote communication. I’m not sure that the actual act described in the article counts as such harasement, but in general I think its pretty obvious that such harassment could (and presumably does) happen and steps should be taken to prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/14 "2010-01-25T19:14:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Certainly I can sexually harrass someone over the phone, or with lewd emails or via skype or whatever. I don’t really see how a online game is any different then other forms of remote communication. I’m not sure that the actual act described in the article counts as such harasement, but in general I think its pretty obvious that such harassment could (and presumably does) happen and steps should be taken to prevent it. The fact that it’s a game makes it seem different, though, to me. If a random stranger calls up and breathes heavy, that’s different than if you were playing some telephone game (though the analogy falls apart here, I don’t know any telephone games). I just would draw a line between a random stranger coming up to you and harassing you, and someone doing it in a game where it’s already agreed that stuff isn’t real. I mean…say, you were playing a role play game in real time, and one of your friends is really sloshed and he says something like, “OK, my character gropes your characters tits,” and you get pissed off at him. Is that really sexual harassment? Does the game context make a diff? ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/15 "2010-01-25T19:21:45Z")
Again with the logging off. I’ve spent a lot of time in a Second Life-based MMORPG. The setting is one that promotes a lot of for-lack-of-a-better-word forceplay stuff, as well as BDSM. And obviously explicit sex. It’s an out-and-out adult community. I, however, don’t partake; if someone tries it, I politely inform them OOC that I’m not interested. If it progresses–and, honestly, that’s only ever happened once–a combination of mute + IMing a GM has taken care of the situation quite nicely. Sony should be taking care of this, from a rules enforcement standpoint, or at least from a customer service standpoint. It’s not a criminal offense. It’s annoying. And, frankly, if you’re at the point where such actions are unthinkable under the stress of the moment. . .well, you should probably not be in that environment to begin with. You can’t call the cops on someone for being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/16 "2010-01-25T19:30:18Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The fact that it’s a game makes it seem different, though, to me. If a random stranger calls up and breathes heavy, that’s different than if you were playing some telephone game (though the analogy falls apart here, I don’t know any telephone games). I just would draw a line between a random stranger coming up to you and harassing you, and someone doing it in a game where it’s already agreed that stuff isn’t real. I mean…say, you were playing a role play game in real time, and one of your friends is really sloshed and he says something like, “OK, my character gropes your characters tits,” and you get pissed off at him. Is that really sexual harassment? Does the game context make a diff? Certainly some things are permissible in a game that aren’t in real life. In general though, my understanding is that the line between harassment is when the other person makes it clear that your sexual advances are unwanted and you persist. I don’t think being in a game makes a difference there, if someone says their character is groping you and you tell them to quit it, and the continue with the lewd suggestions, I’d say its harassment. > [@Angel](#): > > You can’t call the cops on someone for being a jerk. You can call them for someone persisting in clearly unwanted sexual advances though. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/17 "2010-01-25T19:31:19Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I mean…say, you were playing a role play game in real time, and one of your friends is really sloshed and he says something like, “OK, my character gropes your characters tits,” and you get pissed off at him. Is that really sexual harassment? Does the game context make a diff? If he does it repeatedly, after I ask him to stop, then that is paradigmatically sexual harassment. You said you don’t think it’s harassment because he’s talking about what one character does to another character. But that doesn’t seem relevant. Regardless of the fact that the language is in terms of characters, it is very clear which actual person is being targeted by the remarks, by means of remarks about her in-game character. Recall that sexual harassment includes not only sexual acts, but sexual comments as well, even sexual comments not about or directed at the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/18 "2010-01-25T19:35:13Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The fact that it’s a game makes it seem different, though, to me. If a random stranger calls up and breathes heavy, that’s different than if you were playing some telephone game (though the analogy falls apart here, I don’t know any telephone games). I just would draw a line between a random stranger coming up to you and harassing you, and someone doing it in a game where it’s already agreed that stuff isn’t real. I mean…say, you were playing a role play game in real time, and one of your friends is really sloshed and he says something like, “OK, my character gropes your characters tits,” and you get pissed off at him. Is that really sexual harassment? Does the game context make a diff? I tend not to think that this should be a criminal matter, but I’m not sure this is the best reason why. To draw an analogy to sports for a moment - if I’m Tom Brady, and I get tackled, I don’t have a cause of action for assault - that’s just football. Even if the tackle results in a concussion, knee injury, whatever - still probably no cause of action. People can voluntarily and knowingly assume certain risks when they play a game. But, on the other hand - if Tom Brady gets tackled, and then his tackler proceeds to kick the heck out of him while he’s down until his own team drags him off - then, by all means, Brady has a cause of action for assault. He voluntarily consented to a certain level of violence - but not more. Analogizing to this “Home” game - a player may consent to certain forms of misconduct from other players. (Getting killed/looted/insulted, whatever). But it doesn’t seem immediately absurd to think that there might be a higher level of bad conduct that players _aren’t_ implicitly consenting to. Perhaps this category, including sexual harassment, could be in the same category as harassing emails. Or not - truth be told, I’m more than a little leery of criminalizing conduct which seems so minor, and so readily avoided, that it’s a non-issue. On yet another hand, I’d be reluctant to employ that argument in the “real world” - I’d never tell a woman that her best solution is to simply _avoid_ the popular local bar where the staff all make a point of groping her as soon as she gets in, because “after all, you don’t have to go there.” In short: I think this is a hard, nuanced issue. And I don’t envy Sony for having to come up with a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/19 "2010-01-25T19:35:28Z")
Is it sexual harassment when you’re in environment where you aren’t compelled to be and you experience sexual comments? Like, would a friend of yours repeatedly making a ref to your breast or ass or penis or whatever be illegal? Keeping in mind that they’re not actually threatening to do anything, but are definitely making sexual comments. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Or not - truth be told, I’m more than a little leery of criminalizing conduct which seems so minor, and so readily avoided, that it’s a non-issue. On yet another hand, I’d be reluctant to employ that argument in the “real world” - I’d never tell a woman that her best solution is to simply _avoid_ the popular local bar where the staff all make a point of groping her as soon as she gets in, because “after all, you don’t have to go there.” I’m just extremely wary of equating “virtual groping” with real groping, though. If the creepy guy at the bar were saying sexual stuff to her I think that might be a better analogy. But again, would that be illegal or just sleazy? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376/20 "2010-01-25T19:39:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You said you don’t think it’s harassment because he’s talking about what one character does to another character. But that doesn’t seem relevant. Regardless of the fact that the language is in terms of characters, it is very clear which actual person is being targeted by the remarks, by means of remarks about her in-game character. Rumor has it that most of the female characters, particularly the hottest/sluttiest looking ones, are controlled by male players. That aside, we’re talking about pixels groping other pixels. That’s online thuggery, but does not rise to the level of criminal activity in my book. The actual players don’t know each other in most cases, and may be located on different continents. An in game penalty of having the harasser’s account suspended and/or canceled for repeated violations is the appropriate remedy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-rights-blog-says-virtual-sexual-assault-should-be-a-criminal-act/526376.md?page=2)