# Wonderwench and lekatt..... Celebrating ignorance!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412 "2005-04-15T02:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/61 "2005-04-15T18:20:13Z")
\*\* wonderwench\*\* Ivylass, has stated that she _changed her mind_ once she looked at the evidence for herself. There are many people who changed their minds once they looked at what happened and not what they believed happened. You’re right, there are people in this world, that despite the evidence that their worldview is wrong, will never change their minds. They don’t need respect; they need pity. For they waste the one true gift we have as humans. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/62 "2005-04-15T18:20:37Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Bullshit. > > You have thrown backhanded insults in Great Debates over this and have continued to be a bitchy martyr in this thread. > > Yes, there are segments of the ‘pro-life’ movement that are as entrenched as you in a propaganda war of disseminating lies as truth and slandering your opponents claiming to be the victims rather than the victimizers. Riddle me this: Was Terri a human being? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/63 "2005-04-15T18:24:56Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Sorry to disappoint. There are doctors who dispute the PVS finding. Each side can provide evidence to support their claims. On 2002, the judge on the verdict almost had to say it, and I will say it: the doctors for the Schindlers were quacks: [http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5994647&postcount=25](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5994647&postcount=25) Mind you, this conservative judge was expelled from his church because he decided against the Schindlers, just because he had to follow the evidence. > [@](#): > > This comes down to personal belief systems. Meaningless when there is there is evidence against it. > [@](#): > > My beliefs involve a respect for life - even a severely damaged one. And here it shows how you are being obtuse: virtually all agreee that a severely damaged life has to be spared, just not if you choose to end it when the only way to continue “surviving” is with a machine, Mrs. Schiavo life was beyond damaged. > [@](#): > > If a person can breathe on his own and has not left proof beyond a reasonable doubt As it was pointed before, it was not just the husband say so, but several other persons that came forward with testimony of that Mrs. Schiavo wanted. > [@](#): > > that he would wish treatment withheld, I would rather err on the side of life. This is consistent with my appreciation of individual rights. Except the ones of mine, Mrs. Schiavo and more than 75% of Americans that think you are NOT appreciating individual rights here. > [@](#): > > If your interpretation is different, then groovy. I just happen to disagree. Why is that so threatening to you? Where is the respect for diversity? Because there are yahoos in power that agree with you and are trying to pass laws to make minced meat out of individual’s rights regarding life support. Respect for diversity ends when science enters and shows how out of it the doctors putting forward statements claiming Mrs. Schiavo could recuperate or denying the cortex was dead are shown to be quacks. As the discussions before showed, this case is an attack not only on judges, but on basic science, your interpretation has been used to put forward an agenda that will affects us all, not groovy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/64 "2005-04-15T18:29:33Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Riddle me this: Was Terri a human being? Stop insulting the fine acting work of Frank Gorshin and Jim Carrey with this unauthorized use of their tag line. Further, is it even within your ability as a human being to tell the truth and not indulge in manipulative bullshit? Or are you just some shill for the monolithic fundies who believe they have to force the ONE TRUE WAY on everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/65 "2005-04-15T18:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > There are doctors who dispute the “scientific” facts that those who support the withdrawal of nutrition have relied upon for their version of what is right and what is wrong Yes, and there are people who think we faked the moon landing. They too dispute the “scientfic” facts. However, a critical mind can look at the whole picture and determin what is true and what is not. I celebrate your diversity, you are probably a very nice person. And obviously have strong beliefs. But you must understand that the statements you are making are based on those same beliefs, not on facts. As long as you continue to do that, people will keep pitting you. > [@](#): > > Riddle me this: Was Terri a human being? Yup. And as a human being, she did not want to be kept alive on life support. She said as much to her husband and MULTIPLE friends. She said it enough that different judges all agreed she said it, years afterward! Why would you want to keep a human being alive against their obvious wishes? Unless you are suggesting that all those judges wanted her dead. In which case I want to know what they would gain out of such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/66 "2005-04-15T18:31:12Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Riddle me this: Was Terri a human being? She was, and me, as another human being, says to please pull the plug if I am in a similar situation. Thank you very much. The evidence says that that human being would have wanted it just the same. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/67 "2005-04-15T18:35:23Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Riddle me this: Was Terri a human being? Yes, and as such, she deserves to have her wishes respected. Because there was a dispute regarding what those wishes were, the courts are the final arbiter. They took testimony, examined the evidence, and determined that Terri wanted to decline medical intervention, including a feeding tube. Just because it didn’t go the way you wanted does not make it “murder”, or “starvation” or any of the other buzz words favored by the “culture of living death” you espouse. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/68 "2005-04-15T18:38:44Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Yes, and as such, she deserves to have her wishes respected. Because there was a dispute regarding what those wishes were, the courts are the final arbiter. They took testimony, examined the evidence, and determined that Terri wanted to decline medical intervention, including a feeding tube. Just because it didn’t go the way you wanted does not make it “murder”, or “starvation” or any of the other buzz words favored by the “culture of living death” you espouse. I do not espouse a culture of living death. I espouse a value for individual life. I do not believe that there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that she would have chosen to die in the manner she did. You can choose the side upon which you wish our society to err. I have an equal right to choose. If we are going to have euthanasia, let’s at least be honest about it and allow a more humane method. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/69 "2005-04-15T18:39:07Z")
Quoting from the 2002 verdict: > [@](#): > > Dr. Hammesfahr feels his vasodilatation therapy will have a positive affect on > Terry Schiavo. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford do not feel it will have such an > affect. \*\*It is clear that this therapy is not recognized in the medical community. \*\* > Dr. Hammesfahr operates his clinic on a cash basis in advance which made the > discussion regarding Medicare eligibility quite irrelevant. A lot of the time also > was spent regarding his nominations for a Nobel Prize. While he certainly is a > self-promoter and should have had for the court’s review a copy of the letter from > the Nobel committee in Stockholm, Sweden, the truth of the matter is that he is > probably the only person involved in these proceedings who had a United States > Congressman recommend him for such an award. Whether the committee “accepted” the > nomination, “received” the nomination or whatever, it is not that significant. What > is significant, however, and \*\*what undemises his creditability is that he did not > present to this court any evidence other than his generalized statements as to the > efficacy of his therapy on brain damaged individuals like Terry Schiavo. He > testified that he has treated about 50 patients in the same or worse condition than > Terry Schiavo since 1994 but he offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no > tests results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. \*\* If > his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is > inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients he has > treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now > patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995 > involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash. None of these > patients were in a persistent vegetative state and all were conversant. Even he > acknowledges that he is aware of no article or study that shows vasodilatation > therapy to be an effective treatment for persistent vegetative state patients. The > court can only assume that such substantiations are not available, not just > catalogued in such a way that they can not be readily identified as he testified. > > **Neither Dr. Hammesfahr nor Dr. Maxfield was able to credibly testify that the > treatment options that they offered would significantly improve Terry Schiavo’s > quality of life. While Dr. Hammesfahr blithely stated he should be able to get her > to talk, he admitted he was not sure in what way he can improve her condition > although he feels certain her can. He also told the court that “only rarely” do his > patients have no improvement. Again, he is extremely short of specifics. Dr. > Maxfield spoke of a “chance” of recovery although he stated there was a significant > probability that hyperbaric therapy would improve her condition. It is clear from > the evidence that these therapies are experimental insofar as the medical community > is concerned with regard to patients like Terry Schiavo which is borne out by the > total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature. The Mandate requires > something more than a belief, hope or “some” improvement. It requires this court to > find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient > promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo’s cerebral cortex so as to > significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a > preponderance of the evidence to that effect. The other doctors, by contrast, all > testified that there was no treatment available to improve her quality of life. They > were also able to credibly testify that neither hyperbaric therapy nor > vasodilatation therapy was an effective treatment for this sort of injury.** [bolding mine] So much for the doctors who dispute the **scientific** facts… ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/70 "2005-04-15T18:40:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > She was, and me, as another human being, says to please pull the plug if I am in a similar situation. Thank you very much. > > The evidence says that that human being would have wanted it just the same. No, you are imposing how you would wish to be treated in a similar circumstance. Put that in your own Living Will - but don’t assume that all other human beings would wish that treatment. That is the height of arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/71 "2005-04-15T18:41:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Quoting from the 2002 verdict: > [bolding mine] > > So much for the doctors who dispute the **scientific** facts… You are neglecting the fact that Michael denied tests to be performed for several years. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/72 "2005-04-15T18:42:08Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > No, you are imposing how you would wish to be treated in a similar circumstance. Put that in your own Living Will - but don’t assume that all other human beings would wish that treatment. > > That is the height of arrogance. I’d say your willful ignorance, lies, and projecting are the height of arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/73 "2005-04-15T18:42:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On 2002, the judge on the verdict almost had to say it, and I will say it: the doctors for the Schindlers were quacks: > > [http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt) > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5994647&postcount=25](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5994647&postcount=25) > > Mind you, this conservative judge was expelled from his church because he decided against the Schindlers, just because he had to follow the evidence. > Meaningless when there is there is evidence against it. > And here it shows how you are being obtuse: virtually all agreee that a severely damaged life has to be spared, just not if you choose to end it when the only way to continue “surviving” is with a machine, Mrs. Schiavo life was beyond damaged. > As it was pointed before, it was not just the husband say so, but several other persons that came forward with testimony of that Mrs. Schiavo wanted. > Except the ones of mine, Mrs. Schiavo and more than 75% of Americans that think you are NOT appreciating individual rights here. > Because there are yahoos in power that agree with you and are trying to pass laws to make minced meat out of individual’s rights regarding life support. > > Respect for diversity ends when science enters and shows how out of it the doctors putting forward statements claiming Mrs. Schiavo could recuperate or denying the cortex was dead are shown to be quacks. > > As the discussions before showed, this case is an attack not only on judges, but on basic science, your interpretation has been used to put forward an agenda that will affects us all, not groovy at all. And yours is an attack on belief systems which do not support the secular view. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/74 "2005-04-15T18:43:15Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > You are neglecting the fact that Michael denied tests to be performed for several years. You are neglecting the fact that your sources are full of shit and so are you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/75 "2005-04-15T18:43:39Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > but don’t assume that all other human beings would wish that treatment. > > That is the height of arrogance. Surely right up there at those heights would be the arrogance of assuming that a person would want their corpse to be kept artificially animated for many years after their death? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/76 "2005-04-15T18:43:42Z")
\*\* wonderwench\*\* Which tests. Be specfic. Which tests did he deny for several years? So them to us. I have an open mind, I invite you to show the tests which were denied and the reasons why…or do the reasons why don’t matter? ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/77 "2005-04-15T18:44:27Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > You are neglecting the fact that your sources are full of shit and so are you. Wow! What a convincing argument. I’m impressed. Was Ward Churchill one of your professors, perchance? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/78 "2005-04-15T18:44:31Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > And yours is an attack on belief systems which do not support the secular view. And your segment of the belief system is in the midst of a propaganda war over a dead woman to score political points. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/79 "2005-04-15T18:45:14Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > You are neglecting the fact that Michael denied tests to be performed for several years. And you are obtusely ignoring that they tested her again to reach this verdict. Willful ignorant you are. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/80 "2005-04-15T18:45:41Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Wow! What a convincing argument. > > I’m impressed. Was Ward Churchill one of your professors, perchance? Is Randall Terry one of your ministers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412.md?page=5)