# Wonderwench and lekatt..... Celebrating ignorance!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412 "2005-04-15T02:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/81 "2005-04-15T18:46:34Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Is Randall Terry one of your ministers? No. I don’t practice an organized religion. But you sure display the intolerant immature attitude of a brainwashed liberal arts education. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/82 "2005-04-15T18:48:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And you are obtusely ignoring that they tested her again to reach this verdict. > > Willful ignorant you are. No, they did not test her adequately. A very simple swallow test could have been performed which would have settled the nutrition withdrawl fracas once and for all. It was not performed. Nor was a PET scan done. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/83 "2005-04-15T18:49:46Z")
Hey **wonderwrench** , if you’d like to take a break from the the old give and go, how about answering\*\* Holmes’ \*\* post just a few ticks up the page? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/84 "2005-04-15T18:53:56Z")
Here’s a hint, **wonderwench** : Belief systems have shit-all to do with this. We’re talking facts, evidence and one woman’s witnessed desire to not be kept alive if there was no hope for recovery. The only people dragging belief systems into this is the side that thinks they know best for everyone. That would be your side, btw… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/85 "2005-04-15T18:55:33Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > No, they did not test her adequately. > > A very simple swallow test could have been performed which would have settled the nutrition withdrawl fracas once and for all. > > It was not performed. > > Nor was a PET scan done. Swallow? Have you read ANYTHING about this case? She couldn’t swallow! She no longer had the reflex to swallow. It was a good chance that she would choke on solid food through aspiration. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/86 "2005-04-15T18:58:40Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > And yours is an attack on belief systems which do not support the secular view. None at all, even faith has evidence that it originated from somewhere, your opinions in this matter were originally pulled out of your ass, or the asses of people with an agenda that would make the baby Jesus cry. Lets see what a bishop in the area had to say: [http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2296](http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2296) > [@](#): > > BISHOP FRADE ON TERRY SCHIAVO: “Family should make ultimate decision not government” > > A Pastoral Letter to all the churches and the faithful from Leo Frade, Bishop of Southeast Florida > > March 28, 2005 Monday in Easter Week > > … > > I emphatically state that the family should be the proper context for decision-making in this type of determination, and that the government should not intrude in even a surrogate role. Our Church in 1991 expressed its deep conviction that both state and national government should guarantee the individual’s rights and provide for the withholding or withdrawing of life-sustaining systems, where the decision has been arrived at with proper safeguards against abuse. Our courts are the proper vehicles to achieve these safeguards and the intrusion by politicians is extremely inappropriate. So, in your opinion is he attacking belief systems here? Or could be that you thinking that I did an “attack on belief systems which do not support the secular view” is also an opinion that it is full of shit? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/87 "2005-04-15T19:01:54Z")
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! ONE AND ALL! Be advised that the Trollop and Taven Drab Known As **Wonderwench** is hereby granted the Title of… Rude Person Of The Month Of April Year of Our Og 2005 ```auto In The Name Of The Almighty **Cecil**! Yours In **Cecil** , **Bosda Di'Chi Of Tricor** Commissioner of Yams for the SDMB ``` ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/88 "2005-04-15T19:05:04Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > No, they did not test her adequately. > > A very simple swallow test could have been performed which would have settled the nutrition withdrawl fracas once and for all. > > It was not performed. > > Nor was a PET scan done. Like shooting fish in a barrell: [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7328639/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7328639/) > [@](#): > > Terri Schiavo’s 2002 CT scan > Neurologist who examined Schiavo explains the scan > > Updated: 4:04 p.m. ET March 29, 2005 The overwhelming majority in the medical community say Terri Schiavo has close to no brain activity and has no chance of regaining awareness. Dr. Ronald Cranford, who actually examined Terri Schiavo in 2002 and testified to her condition, joined “The Abrams Report” on Monday. Cranford is the assistant chief of neurology at the Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis as well as a faculty member at the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics. > > … > > CRANFORD: Yes, this is a CT scan of Terri Schiavo taken in 2002, the most recent CT scan done on her, 2002. > > ABRAMS: Tell us what it means. > > [Left: CT scan of a normal 25 year old; Right, Terri Schiavo’s most recent scan] > > CRANFORD: Well it shows extremely severe atrophy. Where those black areas are, that should be white. That should be cerebral cortex, and so really there is no cerebral cortex left. It’s just a shrinkage of the cerebral cortex. It’s a thin band of white on the outside and any neurologist or any radiologist looking at those CT scans will tell you that her atrophy could not be more severe than it is. So even if she were mentally conscious, which she’s not, she’s irreversible. She’s been like this for 15 years, Dan, and that CT scan shows the most extreme severe atrophy of the higher centers of the brain. > > ABRAMS: And what about those who say that there should have been more tests? That she’s never had a PET scan. That she needs another MRI. > > CRANFORD: Well she doesn’t need an MRI because a MRI will not show any more damage than this C.T. and you can again check with any radiologists. They’ll tell you this CT scan is more than adequate. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/89 "2005-04-15T19:06:25Z")
**wonderwench** , Do you have _any_ cites that backup any of your claims (The web site run by Terri’s parents doesn’t count, obviously)? I believe that the right thing was done in the end, but if you can produce any credible cites to back you up, I would like to look at them and see if I was wrong. Can you say the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/90 "2005-04-15T19:16:25Z")
**wonderwench** , why are you refusing to familiarize yourself with the facts of the case before forming an opinion? There are doctors and lawyers here willing to give you just the facts, not their opinions, and there are numerous cites, case studies, and court proceedings you could study independently in order to understand the case. Yet you persist in willful ignorance. Why? Wouldn’t your opinion be better supported by the facts if you understood them? Are you afraid if you learned the true facts, you would lose faith in your own opinion? Surely that wouldn’t be the case. So why not learn the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/91 "2005-04-15T19:17:44Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > No, they did not test her adequately. > > A very simple swallow test could have been performed which would have settled the nutrition withdrawl fracas once and for all. > > It was not performed. Bullshit. Three separate swallowing tests were performed in 1990, 1991 and 1992. Here is the fucking [court record](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf) (warning: pdf). The parents asked a _fourth_ test purely as a stalling tactic and the judge (rightly) told them to get fucked. > [@](#): > > Nor was a PET scan done. Nor was it necessary. The CT and the flat EEG are enough. PET scans would not have given them any more information than they already had. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/92 "2005-04-15T19:19:19Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > No. I don’t practice an organized religion. I don’t practice an organized religion, either, but you must have missed that memo they sent around assuring us that we should still practice organized intelligence. Can you produce a site for any of your claims? Test results to refute the PVS? A video is not a test result. I know some folks out there still talk about what a cool movie _Weekend at Bernie’s_ was, but most of us are just not that gullible. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/93 "2005-04-15T19:24:12Z")
**wonderwench** > [@](#): > > Q:Could you please explain the difference between a CAT scan, a CT scan, and a PET scan? > > A: Both CAT (Computed Axial Tomography) and CT (Computed Tomography) scans refer to the same type of x-ray imaging process. The first is an older term. To make an image, an x-ray tube circles inside of the torus or donut in which the patient lies. The x rays pass through the patient and are captured by detectors on the opposite side of the patient from the x-ray tube. Electronic signals from the detectors are processed by a computer to produce images that are displayed on a computer monitor of anatomical structures, like bone, liver, heart, etc. In this regard, the images are similar to the ones seen in a routine x-ray exam as denser objects are white on a film that is produced from the image. **The advantages of the CT system are that the computer data can be manipulated to allow viewing anatomical structures from other angles and with different magnifications. Also, repeat imaging of the patient does not have to be performed.** > > For a PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scan, the patient is injected with a radioactive material that collects in an **organ** or site due to its chemical form. The radioactive material decays in a short period of time and, in the process, the nucleus emits a positively charged particle or positron. bolding mine. [http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1265.html](http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1265.html) Terri’s “organ” her Cerebral Cortex was no more. The PET wouldn’t have shown anything, because there was nothing left to show. The CT scan was the best treatment for her injury. Terri **was** given swallowing tests in 1990, 1991, 1992 and annually until 1997 when they stopped due to the high risk of aspiration. They stopped because they realized she wouldn’t get any better…after 7 years of trying. All this information is in the **actual** court documents…you know the ones linked to in this and the GD threads. ---
**Author:** ![Stephi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stephi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/94 "2005-04-15T19:36:37Z")
Is it just me, or does that whole thread remind you of the dead parrot sketch? SDMB: Terri’s in a persistent vegatative state. She’s not comin’ back. Wonderwench: No no, she’s just restin! SDMB: What?!?! She’s for all intents and purposes dead! Wonderwench: No, no she’s ah…probably pining for the fjords. SDMB: She’s not pinin’! She’s passed on! This girl is no more! She has ceased to be! She’s expired and gone to meet her maker! She’s a stiff! Bereft of life, she rests in peace! Her metabolic processes are now history! She’s kicked the bucket, she’s shuffled off her mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-TERRI!! I know, I’m going to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Aholibah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Aholibah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aholibah)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/95 "2005-04-15T20:17:43Z")
[on preview – sorry all, but this turned out to be a long one] I haven’t contributed to any of the numerous SDMB threads about this very sad case before now, but I have read most of them. I’ve read the court transcripts (which have been linked to repeatedly in this and other threads), and I’ve listened to a lot of the news coverage, though I missed all the TV and cable stuff through not subscribing to cable and not getting decent reception of any broadcast channel without it. My initial emotional reaction to the plight of Terry Schiavo, her husband, and her parents was one of horror and sympathy. I heard that Mrs. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, had been for the past 15 years, that her cerebral cortex was destroyed and that there was no hope of her recovery. I heard about Mr. Shiavo’s relationship with another woman and the fact that the two of them have had children together. I heard that he wanted to starve Mrs. Schiavo to death and that her parents wanted to take over responsibility for her care and keep her alive. I felt that it was reasonable, in light of the fact that Mr. Schiavo had moved on with his life, to give responsibility for Mrs. Schiavo’s care to her parents. I felt revulsion at the idea of withholding food and water from a helpless person, even if that person would not experience pain or discomfort as a result. I felt sympathy and compassion for the Schindlers’ refusal to give up hope for a miracle recovery despite the odds. I felt that it couldn’t matter particularly to Michael Schiavo if Terry died, but that it mattered enormously to the Schindlers that she live. I couldn’t understand why Mr. Shiavo would not accede to their requests and turn over decision-making authority to her parents, divorce Mrs. Shiavo and marry the mother of his children. Gradually, it dawned on me that I was not taking Mrs. Shiavo’s own wishes into account. I learned some more – that it wasn’t Mr. Schiavo who had made the decision to remove the feeding tube; that it was a guardian _ad litem_ who made that recommendation to a judge, and the judge made the decision; that that decision had been affirmed and reaffirmed by every court that heard the case; that multiple witnesses testified that Mrs. Schaivo had expressed a wish not to be kept alive should she ever end up in such a condition. I became convinced that Mr. Schiavo was doing his best to represent Mrs. Schiavo’s interests and stated wishes (at no small cost to himself), and that the Schindlers were (understandably) acting out of their own overwhelming desire to keep their daughter alive and with them at all costs. The case was terribly tragic, and I pity the Schiavos, the Schindlers and every other friend and relative of Terry’s. All the credible evidence that I have seen demonstrates, however, that Mrs. Schiavo would not have wished her life to be sustained via feeding tube in her condition. And that, I believe, is the only just determining factor in deciding whether to continue or withdraw life support. There are matters of fact in the Schiavo case, and there are matters of opinion and belief. As many here have said, it is possible to respect a diversity of beliefs and opinion and tenaciously hold and defend your own, in the midst of that diversity. It is possible for a person’s opinions and beliefs to change or be changed. It is also not shameful or hypocritical or indicative of any type of hostility to freedom of speech to vociferously decry a belief or opinion that differs drastically from your own. (Examples of matters of opinion/belief: - an individual has the right to refuse medical treatment - all human life is inherently valuable and it is morally imperative that it be preserved - a surgically inserted feeding tube is a form of life support - a surgically inserted feeding tube is no different than spoon-feeding a baby Some of these matters of opinion/belief have been “settled” via legislation, but simply because a thing is legally so does not prevent an individual from holding a contrary opinion and believing that the law is wrong.) What it is impossible for people of integrity to countenance is willful disregard for or distortion of the facts as they know them. Where two parties are engaged in an honest factual dispute, it is incumbent upon both of them to provide evidence backing up their claims and fairly assess all the evidence presented. **wonderwench** , this is what you are failing or refusing to do and what many of the people disputing your factual claims are doing easily and willingly. (Examples of factual claims that require evidence in order to rebut: - Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to remove his wife’s feeding tube - Mrs. Schiavo received excellent care during the long course of her incapacitation - Mrs. Schiavo’s cerebral cortex was almost completely atrophied - Mrs. Schiavo repeatedly stated that she would not wish to be sustained on life support) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/96 "2005-04-15T20:22:03Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > I do not espouse a culture of living death. By supporting a position that would force Terri to endure years of PVS against her will, you have demonstrated that living death is your one and only goal, superseding any and all of Terri’s human rights. > [@](#): > > I espouse a value for individual life. So long as all individuals accept your morality. > [@](#): > > I do not believe that there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that she would have chosen to die in the manner she did. And when you are appointed to the bench, that will have any relevance in determining when the wishes of PVS patients should be carried out. > [@](#): > > You can choose the side upon which you wish our society to err. I have an equal right to choose. For yourself and _yourself alone_. Not for me, not for anyone posting here, and especially not for Terri Schiavo, whose right to discontinue medical intervention have consistently been upheld by the courts. You have a right to your beliefs, but you have no right to deny the same rights to others, especially when those rights have been upheld by due process. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/97 "2005-04-15T20:22:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think you understand the difference between facts and opinions. Got it in one. And the reason **Aholibah** ’s fine post will likely do no good. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/98 "2005-04-15T20:39:14Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > there probably isn’t a person who has posted in this thread who wouldn’t take up arms and risk his or her own life precisely to defend your right to make any damn fool statement you want. Well, let’s not be hasty. 😉 > [@wonderwench](#): > > thank you for providing further evidence of the immaturity of those who cannot handle a difference of opinion without being insulting. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **wonderwench** , two posts later > _Awwww, Sod Off Swampy._ Tee hee. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/99 "2005-04-15T21:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > No, they did not test her adequately. > > A very simple swallow test could have been performed which would have settled the nutrition withdrawl fracas once and for all. > > It was not performed. A bedside swallowing evaluation rarely gives one more useful information than simply putting food in someone’s mouth and seeing if she can swallow it. It would not have mattered one iota what the swallowing evaluation showed; the fact is that Terri was unconscious, and unconscious people cannot be fed regularly by mouth, because the danger of aspiration is too high. She would still have required the feeding tube, and if she has a PEG tube anyway, there is no reason at all to feed her by mouth and take the chance. > [@](#): > > Nor was a PET scan done. PVS is a clinical diagnosis; a PET scan would not have supported or refuted it. There was nothing to refute; she clearly met the definition of a PVS. What diagnosis do you think might have been supported by a PET scan? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412/100 "2005-04-15T21:31:05Z")
> [@Stephi](#): > > I know, I’m going to hell. But on the up side, you get priority seating and a backstage pass. The Heathens of the SDMB will have their own section with an eternal Dopefest with scotch eggs galore. It will be _the_ soiree of the afterlife. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wonderwench-and-lekatt-celebrating-ignorance/299412.md?page=6)