…from the Washington Post article I cited:
It isn’t just about black people not trusting the system.
Its about the system not trusting black people.
This isn’t about vaccines. And if you just make it about vaccines then you will never be able to answer the question of why “can’t they see that this is different?”
Because it isn’t different. Not for them. And to find a solution requires engagement with marginalised communities and a commitment to action based on that engagement.
That right there is the difference between you guys and us. Americans right now couldn’t unite against a bubonic-plague-infested sharknado, let alone Covid.
Excellent post.
No.
In America, we are not uniting at all; we are fragmenting into a whole selection of disparate tribes that hate all of the other tribes.
We are a regressive culture, and the pandemic is highlighting the absolute shit out of that fact.
…I mean, for me it’s just heartbreaking. I just want people to stop dying.
To be fair to us Yanks, half of America does, too. What? Half isn’t enough??
Although many of those things that are true for the black community are also true for women. Involuntary sterilization - or not being able to get our tubes tied when we want. Medications given to us that were never tested on us. Thalidomide alone should grant a few generations of mistrust - and more recently gynecological cancers as a result of HRT. Doctors not trusting us. Being medicated for mental health when we really need a cardio workup or a GI workup. And, of course, rampant sexual abuse of patients by doctors. But if there is a vaccination gap between men and women, it isn’t being talked about. And if there isn’t, what makes white women willing to ignore the misogyny of the health care system and black people unable to ignore the racism?
…if there is or there isn’t a gap, really isn’t my place to answer. Please feel free to investigate and report back for us, if you feel inclined.
If there isn’t a disparity though, then perhaps this would go a long way to explaining why “black people are unable to ignore the racism.”
Perhaps the racism results in orders of magnitude worse outcomes for black people, and perhaps while women are often treated appallingly by the health system, black women are often treated even worse than that.
You touched on this when you said “your country was governed by a bunch of conmen and grifter’s whose number one priority was making lots of money” but you may be underestimating how deep that goes. In NZ you’re saying everyone united against Covid. A whole lot of us have been doing the best we can to unite against Covid, but Trump was actively telling people to ignore it, telling them the scientists are lying, coming right out and saying he’s going to do the opposite of what Fauci recommends. Tucker Carlson is telling his viewers to confront people wearing masks and call the police if they see kids wearing masks and the list goes on and on.
This isn’t just about a few people being a nervous about the vaccine, this is about a huge segment of the population…and a part of the population the wields a lot of control, being convinced this is just one giant hoax.
It is, but then the question becomes - is the gap bigger between black women and black men? Because if the reason is “they don’t trust the system” there should be a gap correlation.
And I’m not going to research it, I’m supposed to be doing other things right now and internet rabbit holes that don’t impact my life are a distraction . But its an interesting question
Is this in order to ensure that marginalized communities can dine in at restaurants even if they are unvaccinated? So they can go to the gym while unvaccinated? Take in a movie while unvaccinated? I’m not clear what we expect these studies to tell us that would change whether unvaxxed people should gather indoors.
Is the concern that unvaccinated white folk will be more easily able to endanger their own lives by engaging in high risk activities that unvaccinated black folk are prevented from doing?
Ultimately, we all know that “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges” is crap. However “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to rob pedestrians at gunpoint” is not crap, despite the fact that the poor are also more likely to run afoul of this law than the rich. It’s not crap because it serves a legitimate public purpose.
Insofar as we can accomplish this purpose without disparate impact, then we should do so, but I’m not seeing a clear case re: vaccine passport that there is another path to follow. At least not here in the US where Covid is hopelessly politicized already.
…well, as I said, in the part you didn’t quote:
…before we can examine what impact this will have on marginalized communities, you have to present a plan for what vaccine passports will mean first. And while some places have come up with plans that will only affect restaurants and gyms and movie theatres, there is no guarantee that this will remain to be the case. So perhaps we need to start there first.
The problem is, at least right now, it’s just an imaginary thing WRT covid. So in order to speculate what problems it may cause minorities we first have to speculate on what it even is. At that point, it’s not much more than a thought exercise since, I assume, none of us are lawmakers.
What I think would be helpful is that if any vaccine passport system gets used, it should be ‘vaccine passport or mask’. In other words, if they say you can’t go to a movie without a vaccine card, you can wear a mask instead. Same for an indoor concert or going shopping.
Considering how many places hand out masks for free, I think this would get rid of most of the barriers to a passport system.
And think about how many people will eventually get tired of wearing a mask and just get the vaccine so they can be done with it.
True.
If getting more minorities to vote positively affected wealthy white men (in the way that getting more minorities vaccinated does) then you can bet we’d see voting being made far easier for minorities.
Because that wasn’t the point of the thread, which appears to have been about Voter ID rather than vaccination…
The engagement?[The studies? They’re a Google search away.
And this has worked in many traditionally marginalized communities. Native Americans are vaccinated at a high rate due to engagement efforts at both state and federal levels.
And vaccine uptake among African Americans has risen over the last few months, especially as Delta has settled in. This is due in part to engagement efforts - at meeting people where they live.
And mostly covered things from the previous spring, not from June itself. The stories about people taking vaccination slots were true but not so much now, much less in June.
I challenge you to find a single place in this thread or any other where I stated “vaccine passports” were needed. You are reading an awful lot into my posts that simply aren’t there.
Again, some level of projection.
I do think that of the people whose fault it is that we can’t return to some semblance of normality, many (most?) are unvaccinated.
But I do not think simply being unvaccinated puts one at fault. At least not yet. I will cross over that point when vaccine access is totally universal and trivially easy, which we’re not far off from now but not there yet.
Again, this is a nice story but it bears little resemblance to reality.
The reality is (1) we are and have been working with marginalized communities and (2) the idea of “vaccine passports” that you decry don’t exist and aren’t even being advocated anyway, even by the people you think are supporting them in this thread.
The narrow technical point being raised is that getting a vaccination card is very easy right now for the vast majority though for various reasons, uptake hasn’t caught up to where we want.
This thread is basically strawman arguments all the way down on all sides.
So lest I be misunderstood, I will state unequivocally that in the hypothetical reality where we do implement such a “vaccine passport” system in the US to do necessarily daily tasks like grocery shopping, I’d be against it.
As above, I don’t see this as about vaccination but as a ‘gotcha’ kind of argument for Voter ID. I don’t think I’m the only one, since the thread was moved to P&E. And I don’t see these situations as being analogous.
Unfortunately, there will not be “a plan”. We have 50 states and countless municipalities / entities who are each empowered to enact their own bespoke vaccine passport plan, or not. The choice is to either pick a plan, such as what NYC has proposed, or discuss the concept broadly.
What is not fair is to attack the concept for not including marginalized community opinion. Concepts do not run focus groups and pursue community outreach.
…not at all.
If anything most Americans have no idea how fundamentally corrupt things are at almost every level. You could point me at anything in American society and I could point out how the grift is being played out.
I’m really the wrong person to be saying that too.
I think you are missing the point.
The obvious failings of the Trump administration are obviously obvious.
Trump isn’t in the Whitehouse now. Trump isn’t in charge of the public health response.
In May the CDC issued guidance that said that suggested that if you were fully vaccinated masks wouldn’t be required. In response to that change in guidance the Whitehouse posted this: (clicking the link to view the graphic is required)
“CAN STOP WEARING MASKS” it says in big, bold letters with “fully vaccinated people” in a much smaller font. It was a messaging disaster that is having repercussions today. And it was an inherently political decision to frame it this way.
The Biden administration is perfectly capable of taking the politics out of its pandemic response. But it hasn’t.
Well,yeah. I’m pointing out the problems. I don’t have all the solutions.
…are you kidding me?
Where in the concept of “vaccine passport” does it indicate ignoring the concerns of marginalized communities?
This is an implementation issue, and simply does not exist until the implementation plan is decided upon.
…I mean,the title of the thread really sums it up.
Neither of the cites you found in your google search discuss vaccine passports.
Perhaps in your next google search you might want to add that to your search terms?
Nope. Nothing about vaccine passports there either.
So perhaps there are better ways to get black people vaccinated than to introduce vaccine passports then?
It was covering things from the previous spring to explain some of the hesitancy now. That was the point. That you seem to have missed. You can’t look at one thing in isolation.
The thread is about vaccine passports. You responded to me talking about vaccine passports. If you weren’t about vaccine passports then you are very much off topic.
No projection at all.
You’ve quoted me out of context.
Again, this is a nice story but it bears little resemblance to reality.
The reality is
(1) the “we” in “we have been working with marginalized communities” is doing a lot of work here. Especially in terms of vaccine passports. You haven’t shown that there has been any "working with marginalised communities (in regards to passports) at all.
(2) This thread is about vaccine passports. I’ve been talking about vaccine passports and if you don’t think I’ve been talking about vaccine passports then you really haven’t understood anything I’ve said.
I have made it very clear from the outset what I was addressing.
You decided to engage me. If you had no interest in discussing vaccine passports then you wasted a significant amount of time responding to me twice. I haven’t been “posting strawman arguments.” I’ve been on topic.
I agree that the graphic was poorly conceived and the overall message a mistake. But how does this demonstrate “The Biden administration [not] taking the politics out of its pandemic response”?