# Word derivation/ is this true ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 22, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104 "2003-01-22T00:45:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![insider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@insider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/insider)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/1 "2003-01-22T00:45:05Z")
In the 16th and 17th centuries, everything had to be transported by ship. It was also before commercial fertilizer’s invention, so large shipments of manure were common. It was shipped dry, because in dry form it weighed a lot less than when wet, but once water (at sea) hit it, it not only became heavier, but the process of fermentation began again, of which a by product is methane gas. As the stuff was stored below decks in bundles you can see what could (and did) happen. Methane began to build up below decks and the first time someone came below at night with a lantern, BOOOOM! Several ships were destroyed in this manner before it was determined just what was happening. After that, the bundles of manure were always stamped with the term “Ship High In Transit” on them which meant for the sailors to stow it high enough off the lower decks so that any water that came into the hold would not touch this volatile cargo and start the production of methane. Thus evolved the term “S.H.I.T,” which has come down through the centuries and is in use to this very day. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/2 "2003-01-22T00:48:33Z")
No. Shit probably is a loanword from German, which has the word scheiss which means the same thing. Doubt heavily all word origin stories that depend on a strange acronym or a convoluted chain of events. Etymology (the study of word origins) is rife with absolutely moronic derivation theories. You’ve stumbled on one, but you had the good sense to question it. Good for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/3 "2003-01-22T00:55:23Z")
Just another urban legend that makes its rounds in e-mail every so often. Check out debunking sites like [www.snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com) when you get something questionable like this. [Here’s a link to the Snopes writeup](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/shit.htm) ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/4 "2003-01-22T01:01:31Z")
Ship High In Transit … ROFLMAO!!! Ive never heard that… that was hilarious! good story to confuse my kids with. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/5 "2003-01-22T01:26:38Z")
Just to pile it on (sorry), the OED says: > [@](#): > > [The form shite represents OE. \*scítan, pa. tense \*scát, pa. pple. -sciten (in be-sciten), corresponding to OFris. \*skîta (NFris. sktj, pa. tense skäd, pa. pple. skedden), MLG. schîten, Du. schijten, OHG. scîan (MHG. schîan, mod.G. scheissen), ON. skíta (MSw. skîta, Da. skide), f. OTeut. root \*skt-. The now more common form shit is influenced by the pa. pple. or the related n.] “Shite” was the original form. First citation is c 1308: > [@](#): > > c1308 in Rel. Ant. II. 176 Hail be e, skinners, with ure drenche kive,…Whan that hit thonnerith, e mote ther in schite. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/6 "2003-01-22T01:55:53Z")
_Derleth Doubt heavily all word origin stories that depend on a strange acronym_ Agreed: this is one of the several topics covered at the [Common Errors in Popular Etymology](http://www.wordorigins.org/errors.htm) site. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/7 "2003-01-22T01:56:24Z")
Folk etomology is all over the place. For example, one version of it claims that the word “barbeque” derives from people cooking animals whole, in other words from “barbe=beard” to “queue representing tail.” You should read the scornful dismissal of this idea in the OED. By the way, dictionaries give the derivation as being from the American Spanish word “barbacoa” which is a lattice or framework for supporting meat over a fire. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/8 "2003-01-22T02:19:15Z")
FWIW, transport of significant quantities of manure by ship in the 16th and 17th centuries was pretty much not done. You either used local sources or did without. Compared to today, ship transport was very expensive 400 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/9 "2003-01-22T02:20:19Z")
Even the Great Cecil railed against acronyms as far back as 1984. [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_268b.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_268b.html) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/10 "2003-01-22T02:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > Doubt heavily all word origin stories that depend on a strange acronym Good advice. Indeed, are there any examples of these stories of acronym-derived words that have proved to be true? ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/11 "2003-01-22T03:12:03Z")
**Xema** , most likely not for any word coined prior to the 20th century, when acronyms first became all the rage. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/12 "2003-01-22T03:46:12Z")
One of the earliest acronyms, pretty much, was “radar.” ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/13 "2003-01-22T03:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > The earliest acronym of which we are aware is, unfortunately, a racial slur. It is _Peruvian_, a derogatory term for “Jew” used in South Africa in the 1890s. This peculiar term comes from P.R.U. which is said to stand for “Polish and Russian Union”. [http://www.takeourword.com/Issue063.html](http://www.takeourword.com/Issue063.html) As unlikely as that etymology may seem, the OED says that it’s probably right, and that it dates from 1898. ---
**Author:** ![samarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@samarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samarm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/14 "2003-01-22T03:55:20Z")
“modem” is derived from “modulator demodulator”. Not precisely an acronym, but derived in a similar way. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/15 "2003-01-22T05:10:13Z")
Oddly, participants here should take a look at [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157394), which also begins with an after-the-fact explanation of a acronym that has been widely disputed. Let the threads converge; let the fighting of ignornace spread its wings and fertilize two forums simultaneosly. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/16 "2003-01-22T07:04:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Xema \* > Indeed, are there any examples of these stories of acronym-derived words that have proved to be true? Not really. There are a handful of words that have acronymic derivation, but they usually don’t come with cute stories attached. In addition to the aforementioned _radar, laser, sonar, scuba, snafu,_ and _canola_ are in this category. There’s a number of others, but they are mostly technical. _Modem_ is probably best described as a blend, since it combines the initial syllables of two words rather than the initial letters of several words. There’s a number of those kinds of words out there too (e.g. _napalm, pixel_ and _biopic_). There is one cute story which may or may not be true, and the word involved is indisputably an acronym. That word is _awol_. The OED doesn’t have any cites for awol dating from before WWI and Merriam-Webster’s gives a WWI era date for it. The story, though, puts it back to the American Civil War. According to the story, deserters who were returned to their units were given the punishment of having to walk around the camp wearing a sign around their neck. The sign had the letters A W O L on it. Apparently this made them feel shame about going awol. There is some support for this story, so it may be true. But the word doesn’t seem to have entered the common vernacular at the time, which to me means that it’s not the true origin of the word. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/17 "2003-01-22T13:29:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Folk etomology is all over the place. For example, one version of it claims that the word “barbeque” derives from people cooking animals whole, in other words from “barbe=beard” to “queue representing tail.” \*\* Technically, that’s an urban legend, not folk etymology. Folk etymology is the process of changing an unfamiliar word into something that looks more familiar (e.g., “hausenblase” into “isinglass”). There’s also the Picketwire River in New Mexico, which is derived from the French “Purgitoire.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/18 "2003-01-22T16:16:36Z")
The one word derived from initials from before the twentieth century that I know of is O.K., which can be traced back to 1839. We discussed this before. Do a search on “O.K.,” “acronym,” and “etymology” in the archives and you’ll find a slew of discussions of it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/19 "2003-01-22T16:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samarm \* > \*\*“modem” is derived from “modulator demodulator”. Not precisely an acronym, but derived in a similar way. \*\* Actually, is _is_ precisely an acronym. Other examples discussed here are _initialisms_, a subset of acronyms. (My favorite initialism is the name of a team that was IDSFA.) ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104/20 "2003-01-22T16:51:22Z")
I always understood acronyms to be new words formed from initials while initialisms were spoken as a series of letters. For example, radar (spoken “ray-dar”) is an acronym while IRS (“eye-are-ess”) spoken letter-by-letter is an initialism. If this is the case, I’m not sure how you’d classify modem, which is word parts and not letters, though “blend” doesn’t seem like a bad term to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/word-derivation-is-this-true/150104.md?page=2)