# Words Fail Me \[infanticide\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989 "2006-02-24T22:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/21 "2006-02-26T06:23:34Z")
> [@TJdude825](#): > > And yet, I disagree with you on this point. The **logic** doesn’t quite follow. Bolding mine. That’s where you went wrong. You’re expectations were too high. ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/22 "2006-02-26T06:52:39Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > From Tevildo’s link: > > “The baby’s mother was unaware of the abuse until detectives visited her home after finding photographs detailing the abuse at Webster’s home.” > > The article must have left something out. Abuse that would show in a photo should be evident to mom. I assume the photos actually show the abuse being perpetrated. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/23 "2006-02-26T08:10:16Z")
> [@Gr8Kat](#): > > I assume the photos actually show the abuse being perpetrated. I think they mean that there would be visible signs/injuries. I’m wondering though, if they aren’t counting fingers, pencils or the like? ☹ I’m _hoping_ that this is the case, and that the poor baby didn’t have “bigger” things penetrating her. (Where’s that pukey smiley?) ---
**Author:** ![robotic\_panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@robotic\_panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robotic_panda)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/24 "2006-02-26T11:22:45Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > I think they mean that there would be visible signs/injuries. I’m wondering though, if they aren’t counting fingers, pencils or the like? ☹ I’m _hoping_ that this is the case, and that the poor baby didn’t have “bigger” things penetrating her. (Where’s that pukey smiley?) Maybe I’m missing something, but what the hell are you talking about? Jebus. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/25 "2006-02-26T11:33:47Z")
> [@Margeuerite](#): > > What’s up with the disparity in the sentencing in this case? Webster (the man) received a life sentence; the woman (French) admitted one more “indencent assault” charge and three more rape charges than Webster, yet she only received a five year prison sentence. Now Webster admitted to additional separate charges, and for all I know he may have a prior record and French may not, but would this justify the disparity in sentencing? NOTHING and it happens far to often! She should have recieved the harsher penalty. She was the mother. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/26 "2006-02-26T15:36:43Z")
> [@TJdude825](#): > > And yet, I disagree with you on this point. The logic doesn’t quite follow. Gee, it seems pretty clear to me. The perpetrator forfited his right to claim protection on “sancity of life” grounds by his _actions_. The baby did nothing of the sort. Torturing and murdering an inncoent baby trumps an individual’s right to life. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/27 "2006-02-26T15:43:42Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Gee, it seems pretty clear to me. The perpetrator forfited his right to claim protection on “sancity of life” grounds by his _actions_. The baby did nothing of the sort. Torturing and murdering an inncoent baby trumps an individual’s right to life. Nope. Sanctity of life means just that - life is sacred, we should not take it away. Just because the perpetrator himself clearly doesn’t believe in the sanctity of life, he does not “tarnish” his own life by his actions - his life as still as sacred as that of the child whom he killed. If you believe in the sanctity of life, you believe that is it “untrumpable”, to use your words. At least, that’s the way I understood it. I don’t believe in sanctity of life myself, though I am anti-death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/28 "2006-02-26T15:45:09Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > I think they mean that there would be visible signs/injuries. I’m wondering though, if they aren’t counting fingers, pencils or the like? ☹ I’m _hoping_ that this is the case, and that the poor baby didn’t have “bigger” things penetrating her. (Where’s that pukey smiley?) No, unfortunately. ☹ Rape (legally) requires genital penetration, otherwise it’s just indecent assault. > [@calm kiwi](#): > > NOTHING and it happens far to often! She should have recieved the harsher penalty. She was the mother. No, she was just the rapist’s girlfriend. One doesn’t want to _blame_ the mother in this sort of case, but - I agree that it’s surprising she didn’t notice the injuries, and a little more research into the backgrounds of the “babysitters” would have prevented the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/29 "2006-02-26T16:10:00Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Nope. Sanctity of life means just that - life is sacred, we should not take it away. Just because the perpetrator himself clearly doesn’t believe in the sanctity of life, he does not “tarnish” his own life by his actions - his life as still as sacred as that of the child whom he killed. If you believe in the sanctity of life, you believe that is it “untrumpable”, to use your words. > > At least, that’s the way I understood it. I don’t believe in sanctity of life myself, though I am anti-death penalty. Isn’t this a semantics issue then? If I used the wrong term, then I apologise. Basically I believe that each person has an absolute and complete right to life, however they have the ability to forfit that right by their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/30 "2006-02-26T18:22:33Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Basically I believe that each person has an absolute and complete right to life, however they have the ability to forfit that right by their actions. There’s a contradiction there; an absolute right cannot by definition be forfeit. I wouldn’t have a problem executing the guy; I just wouldn’t use “sanctity of life” as an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/31 "2006-02-26T18:27:08Z")
Then how about this: I really love babies. I really hate baby-torturing-and murdering scumbags. On that basis alone, I’ll happily screw a pistol in his ear and send him on to glory myself. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/32 "2006-02-26T19:19:13Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Isn’t this a semantics issue then? If I used the wrong term, then I apologise. Basically I believe that each person has an absolute and complete right to life, however they have the ability to forfit that right by their actions. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > There’s a contradiction there; an absolute right cannot by definition be forfeit. Exactly. People who believe in sanctity of life believe it is an absolute right, one which under no circumstances is forfeited. You ( **Weirddave** ) believe that it is a \*very important \* right, but that given some circumstances (like here, inhuman behaviour) are enough to lose that right. That’s the difference. By the way, i’m in agreement with you here - this guy most certainly deserves the death penalty. Were I not against it, I imagine i’d share your position entirely. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/33 "2006-02-26T21:39:29Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Exactly. People who believe in sanctity of life believe it is an absolute right, one which under no circumstances is forfeited. You ( **Weirddave** ) believe that it is a \*very important \* right, but that given some circumstances (like here, inhuman behaviour) are enough to lose that right. That’s the difference. > > By the way, i’m in agreement with you here - this guy most certainly deserves the death penalty. Were I not against it, I imagine i’d share your position entirely. I agree. Although I am against the death penalty if it was my child I would be wrestling **Scumpup’s** gun off of him. ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/34 "2006-02-26T21:45:12Z")
> [@robotic\_panda](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something, but what the hell are you talking about? Jebus. One of the other links above was to a story about babysitters raping a 12 week old baby. The mother was ignorant of the abuse until police showed her pictures of the abuse that the babysitters had taken. ---
**Author:** ![deevee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@deevee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deevee)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/35 "2006-02-26T22:14:45Z")
I’m far too vindictive to support the death penalty myself. Let him serve his 22 years as a known baby killer, leave the vigilante justice until he gets released. ---
**Author:** ![robotic\_panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@robotic\_panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robotic_panda)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/36 "2006-02-26T22:40:15Z")
> [@Gr8Kat](#): > > One of the other links above was to a story about babysitters raping a 12 week old baby. The mother was ignorant of the abuse until police showed her pictures of the abuse that the babysitters had taken. Ooooh ok. I knew I had to be missing something; thanks for the clarification. There are too many horrifying stories for me to keep up with, apparently. Again, _Jebus_. People make me sick sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/37 "2006-02-26T23:19:22Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > No, unfortunately. ☹ Rape (legally) requires genital penetration, otherwise it’s just indecent assault. Then how can the girlfriend be admitting to charges of rape? I’m a little confused. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/38 "2006-02-26T23:54:37Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > Then how can the girlfriend be admitting to charges of rape? I’m a little confused. It doesn’t have to be genital penetration with a penis. The woman’s fingers, a random item that’ll fit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/39 "2006-02-27T00:04:09Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > It doesn’t have to be genital penetration with a penis. The woman’s fingers, a random item that’ll fit, etc. No, rape is defined in the [Sexual Offences Act (2003)](http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30042--b.htm) as > [@](#): > > **Rape** > > A person (A) commits an offence if- > > (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis, > (b) B does not consent to the penetration, and > © A does not reasonably believe that B consents. which is basically the same as the definition under the preceding 1956 act. The 2003 act introduced a new offence of “Assault by penetration”, but that wasn’t in force at the time of this crime. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989/40 "2006-02-27T00:06:01Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > Then how can the girlfriend be admitting to charges of rape? I’m a little confused. As an accessory. If two robbers break into a house, armed with a gun, and shoot the occupant, _both_ are guilty of murder, even though only one pulled the trigger. This case is the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-fail-me-infanticide/345989.md?page=3)