# Words that go together **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317 "2013-01-07T04:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/21 "2013-01-07T12:21:31Z")
It doesn’t. It’s a well accepted grammar error that would be marked wrong by perhaps 100% of native speakers who saw it, which is the gold standard for deciding what is “right” or “wrong” in terms of grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/22 "2013-01-07T12:27:16Z")
And most native speakers don’t know the difference between syntax and semantics, but there’s no reason to be sloppy when you’re talking in a context where the difference might be important or useful. The rules of syntax may be determined by corpus linguistics, but that doesn’t mean that every time someone says “this is wrong” it means “this violates the rules of English grammar.” IOW, if somebody says “write a picture” is bad grammar, they’re wrong, or they don’t know what grammar is. There is absolutely no difficulty in parsing “write a picture” as English. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/23 "2013-01-07T12:29:20Z")
The only thing you can make the welkin do is ring. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/24 "2013-01-07T12:32:10Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > And most native speakers don’t know the difference between syntax and semantics, but there’s no reason to be sloppy when you’re talking in a context where the difference might be important or useful. The rules of syntax may be determined by corpus linguistics, but that doesn’t mean that every time someone says “this is wrong” it means “this violates the rules of English grammar.” > > IOW, if somebody says “write a picture” is bad grammar, they’re wrong, or they don’t know what grammar is. There is absolutely no difficulty in parsing “write a picture” as English. “Write a picture” is a well-known grammar error, if only you did the research I suggested. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/25 "2013-01-07T12:45:09Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Far be it for me to get into a grammar argument at 4 in the morning when I should be working, but according to my understanding, the invalidity of phrases like “write a picture” is semantic and not syntactic. “Write a picture” is as grammatical as “read a book.” It is also very early in the morning for me yet I have an MA in a related field and have been teaching grammar for ~20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/26 "2013-01-07T12:47:02Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > “Write a picture” is a well known grammar error. Many things are “well known” grammar errors that have nothing at all to do with grammar. A simple parse of the phrase in question is enough to correspond its structure with one of the most basic units of English syntax: [[sub]VP[/sub] write a picture] = [[sub]VP[/sub] [[sub]V[/sub] write] [[sub]NP[/sub] a picture]] =\> [[sub]VP[/sub] [[sub]V[/sub] write] [[sub]NP[/sub] [[sub]D[/sub] a] [[sub]N[/sub] picture]]] To claim that merely nonsense phrases are bad grammar is to blur the definition of grammar to the point of uselessness. It would be like saying that dropping an anvil on your foot is bad metallurgy: sure, there’s a connection there, but no, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/27 "2013-01-07T12:50:29Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Many things are “well known” grammar errors that have nothing at all to do with grammar. A simple parse of the phrase in question is enough to correspond its structure with one of the most basic units of English syntax: > > [[sub]VP[/sub] write a picture] = [[sub]VP[/sub] [[sub]V[/sub] write] [[sub]NP[/sub] a picture]] =\> [[sub]VP[/sub] [[sub]V[/sub] write] [[sub]NP[/sub] [[sub]D[/sub] a] [[sub]N[/sub] picture]]] > > To claim that merely nonsense phrases are bad grammar is to blur the definition of grammar to the point of uselessness. It would be like saying that dropping an anvil on your foot is bad metallurgy: sure, there’s a connection there, but no, not really. Seriously, you’re trying to drop that UG crap to win an argument? Green dreams sleep furiously? Again, see what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/28 "2013-01-07T12:59:04Z")
“Green dreams sleep furiously” is nonsense but good grammar. Really, why are you so insistent on making syntax do a job that it’s not meant to do? If you could point out to me where in a reputable book on grammar by actual linguists (CGEL for example) it lists the rule by which “write a picture” can be judged ungrammatical, I would happily concede the point. EDIT: and you leave my grampapa alone! :o ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/29 "2013-01-07T13:00:53Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > “Green dreams sleep furiously” is nonsense but good grammar. Really, why are you so insistent on making syntax do a job that it’s not meant to do? If you could point out to me where in a reputable book on grammar by actual linguists (CGEL for example) it lists the rule by which “write a picture” can be judged ungrammatical, I would happily concede the point. Go ahead and pick up any writing or grammar text written in the past 10 years. There’s probably numerous sections on why word choice/collocation errors are real, accepted errors. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/30 "2013-01-07T13:02:29Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Go ahead and pick up any writing or grammar text written in the past 10 years. There’s probably numerous sections on why word choice/collocation errors are real, accepted errors. Errors, yes. Syntax errors, no. EDIT: it strikes me that perhaps the root of this disagreement is that I’ve been using “grammar” to mean precisely “syntax,” but you might mean it more broadly. I’d hoped this was implied when I drew the distinction between “language” and “grammar” wrt **njtt** ’s post, but if that’s all this is about then I retract my belligerent corrections. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/31 "2013-01-07T13:05:44Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Errors, yes. Syntax errors, no. > > EDIT: it strikes me that perhaps the root of this disagreement is that I’ve been using “grammar” to mean precisely “syntax,” but you might mean it more broadly. I’d hoped this was implied when I drew the distinction between “language” and “grammar” wrt **njtt** ’s post, but if that’s all this is about then I retract my belligerent corrections. 😛 No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/32 "2013-01-07T13:15:10Z")
Well, in my defense I’ll only say that in linguistics, “grammar” usually does refer only to morphology and syntax. In my field (computer science, admittedly a bit removed from human linguistics), it does so exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/33 "2013-01-07T13:16:26Z")
Apropos “write a picture”, following the _katharevousa_ Greek idiom the proper verb for what an Eastern Orthodox iconographer does in creating one, which most of us would use “draw and paint” as the relevant verbs, is “to _write_ an icon.” The reference, as I understand it, is to the symbology appropriate to each saint’s iconology. Though a quite specialized usage, I’d have to say it is grammatically sound English. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/34 "2013-01-07T13:17:29Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > … Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/35 "2013-01-07T13:21:21Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Sigh. I’m with **Polycarp** on this one. He said it was grammatically spund, and I completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/36 "2013-01-07T13:22:12Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > I’m with **Polycarp** on this one. He said it was grammatically spund, and I completely agree. I figured you would. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/37 "2013-01-07T13:27:51Z")
Notwithstanding that **Polycarp** ’s argument relates to Greek, I still challenge you to find any evidence of unspundness. I am quite sure none exists. EDIT: of course now I see that **Polycarp** has corrected his post and thereby rendered me ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/38 "2013-01-07T13:28:42Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Notwithstanding that **Polycarp** ’s argument relates to Greek, I still challenge you to find any evidence of unspundness. I am quite sure none exists. Unspundification has a long history. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/39 "2013-01-07T13:35:48Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Unspundification has a long history. Found a cite: [www.aaargh.get.that.scary.twilight.baby.away.from.me.com](http://www.aaargh.get.that.scary.twilight.baby.away.from.me.com) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317/40 "2013-01-07T14:23:16Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > In modern English, if you “wreak” something, it’s generally “havoc” (or possibly revenge). The only thing that can be “akimbo” is “arms”. There’s only “flotsam” where there’s also “jetsam” > > Is there a term for words like this that are solely or mainly used in just one context? And what are some more that people can think of? Not true – Legs can also be akimbo. I thought of naming a character “‘Legs’ Akimbo”, but shortly afterwards, the comic strip _Meek and Eek_ did just that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/words-that-go-together/646317.md?page=3)