# Work emails banned after 6pm (in France). You think we need the same in US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835 "2014-04-11T00:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/61 "2014-04-11T14:01:51Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > [Could work emails be banned after 6pm? - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26958079) > > [Work-life balance: what changes could help improve yours? | World news | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/apr/09/new-work-life-balance-france-sweden-laws-countries-better-job-hours-work) > > If you click to Google News and put in something like ‘email France’ a whole lot of things come up. Ok I found an article in French. So, this agreement applies in a specific branch of activity and to autonomous workers not paid on an hourly, but daily basis, apparently mostly managers (one two unions that signed it is a manager’s union, in fact). FTR being paid on a daily basis is fairly atypical. It seemingly follows a court decision invalidating a previous agreement on the basis that there wasn’t enough control on the workload and work duration. Basically, this branch wanted to create a new work mode : highly skilled employees (engineers, consultants and the like) working for clients outside of the direct control of their employer would be paid by the day, without weekly limits to the number of hours worked, overtime, etc… (that might be common in the US from what I read here, but this isn’t in France. Typically, only very high level managers are exempt of overtime and such things). This employer federation signed an agreement with a couple of unions. Someone went to court, and courts vacated the whole agreement on the basis that it granted too much leeway to employers and could result in seriously abusive work schedules. So, the federation went back to work on a more protective new agreement. It turned out during the negociations that the main complaint unions got from their members was the excessive use of work e-mail at times when they shouldn’t be expected to be working. So, they asked for, and get the inclusion of this clause in the new agreement. To sum up, this is going to impact a very limited subset of employees in a very limited subset of french companies. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/62 "2014-04-11T15:10:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > To sum up, this is going to impact a very limited subset of employees in a very limited subset of french companies. And so goes another **aceplace57** thread of outrage. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/63 "2014-04-11T15:21:12Z")
BrokenBriton: > [@](#): > > Given it’s generally one bullshit hierarchy, you don’t think ‘the boss’ will like his free time free, as well? That’s not usually how they get to the point of being boss. [Relevant Dilbert cartoon](http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2006-02-25/) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/64 "2014-04-11T15:24:12Z")
If this type of arrangement became practice in the US ( which I do 'to think it will), then it would probably only apply to non-exempt employees. Exempt employees that want to be treated like non-exempt employees, could probably take a pay cut for a less important role and become non-exempt and avoid being on call after work hours. I personally value the technology that permits me to be able to stay in touch with the office and my team. As I feel the freedom, to leave the office and attend events for my kids, even when important things are going on back at the office. I feel the freedom to take more time off for vacations, family gatherings, etc., as I know I can step away for an hour and get things done if I need to and still be able to be with my family the rest of the trip. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/65 "2014-04-11T15:54:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And clearly, the solution to that problem is to ban employers from communicating with their employees with _one_ medium of communication which is New and therefore Evil. If employers need to communicate with employees after work, they can pay them overtime for the hours they are expected to be on call. Fair? Why should employees do free work? That’s laughable. So yeah, absent fair compensation, it should be banned. > [@Smapti](#): > > I used to show up at my employees’ houses when I needed to talk to them and they weren’t answering the phone. Of course, its all so clear now. You’re the type of boss that this law is protecting employees from. No wonder you’re against it. I don’t know what happened when you came to your employee’s house, but suppose they told you to leave and that they’ll answer anything the next day while at work, how would you feel? Would you overlook that when it came time for promotions or raises? What would you do if you had another employee who welcomed the intrusion and helped you out? Which one would be more favorable in your eyes? > [@bucketybuck](#): > > Are you being deliberately obtuse? It doesn’t seem like he is, since he admits to being one of those bosses that harasses his employees. He’s pretending he doesn’t get to establish his side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/66 "2014-04-11T16:06:15Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > And so goes another **aceplace57** thread of outrage. It’s funny cause it’s true. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/67 "2014-04-11T16:22:17Z")
There’s no outrage coming from me. The role of workers in this new digital world is still being defined. I knew France’s program is limited to only a million workers. A subset of their work force. It is a start and hopefully this policy might become the model for other larger ones. The US will eventually look at the issue too. Successful policies in Europe might make it easier to get something done in the US. A blanket law probably won’t happen. I can see the Dept of Labor drafting policies for after hours work. Much like they do for overtime or work place hazards through OSHA. I think OSHA did require some legislation to get the agency established? There is a need for the Feds to ensure worker’s are treated fairly in the work place. Defining policy for after hours contact is simply expanding that role. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/68 "2014-04-11T16:36:14Z")
My boss would probably like a rule like this to keep _me_ from emailing _her_ after hours. 😃 I am generally skeptical of third parties interfering withthe mutually beneficial agreement I have with my employer. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/69 "2014-04-11T17:58:58Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > You’d be surprised how insidious pressure from work can be. They can’t force you to check emails after work unless you carry call. But the bosses and coworker’s passive aggressive questions gets their meaning across. > > Are you up for a promotion? Is the company downsizing? Got a poor annual performance review? People jump to that phone like crazy when texts or emails arrive. Or, some people feel compelled to check their messages because they have work that needs doing. > [@aceplace57](#): > > The pressure is just insane. I lived through that crap in Computing Services for five years on call with a beeper. It was literally affecting my health. I took a pay cut to transfer into a computer support position (different dept) that doesn’t require call. We go home at 5pm. So the system works. You were able to decide that you were willing to get paid less to have more regular work hours. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/70 "2014-04-11T18:16:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Or, some people feel compelled to check their messages because they have work that needs doing. > > So the system works. You were able to decide that you were willing to get paid less to have more regular work hours. Some people just don’t have the disciple to do this type of work and feel that they must provide instant answers to questions. Unless it is the type of job that requires instant answers/response like a customer service job (which I would never take in the first place) it is usually better to just read it and respond back with a quick A) I’ll review it and get back with you, B) Yes you have my OK, or C) glad you informed me let’s talk now. Rarely is a C level response necessary but when it is everyone is more than grateful that you responded and people high up give recognition. At least they should. If they don’t you should leave the phone on silent when you leave the office and people will learn not to expect a response from you. You can become one of “those” people who “have a life”. 🙂 And again, it’s not for everyone and perhaps some people aren’t aware of what they are getting into when they take a job like that. If so they should step back and let someone else have a go at it; not expect the government to come in and force a one size fits all policy onto all employers. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/71 "2014-04-11T18:30:44Z")
I don’t usually think that there should be laws to protect people from themselves and the choices they make but in this case people are forced to make a choice they shouldn’t have to, like banning steroids in sports. People should not have to choose between the dangers of PEDs and losing out to people who do. Same thing here. Despite what the boss thinks, non-exempt does not mean available for work 24/7 yet some people are willing to do that to move ahead. So when you get that email or call from Big Bossman (from Cobb County, GA) at 11:16pm, you are forced to decide whether to work unpaid hours\* to the company or get on BB’s bad side for “not doing your job”. \*I believe most Departments of Labor (state and Fed) hold that non-exempt refers to normal course of your job and that if abused you are owed pay. So someone that if you are literally on call 24/7 and have to be within 1 hour of the office at all times, you’re boss cannot pay you $30,000 and call you non-exempt to escape paying you for your hours. Of course it is determining when normal course of business turns into abusing non-exempt status that is tricky. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/72 "2014-04-11T19:31:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Despite what the boss thinks, non-exempt does not mean available for work 24/7 yet some people are willing to do that to move ahead. So when you get that email or call from Big Bossman (from Cobb County, GA) at 11:16pm, you are forced to decide whether to work unpaid hours\* to the company or get on BB’s bad side for “not doing your job”. > \*I believe most Departments of Labor (state and Fed) hold that non-exempt refers to normal course of your job and that if abused you are owed pay. So someone that if you are literally on call 24/7 and have to be within 1 hour of the office at all times, you’re boss cannot pay you $30,000 and call you non-exempt to escape paying you for your hours. Of course it is determining when normal course of business turns into abusing non-exempt status that is tricky. I wonder how many people that are non-exempt, have felt pressured to always be “on” after hours and on weekends, similarly how the OP described his position. **aceplace57** , during your persecuted time of being “on call” were you an exempt or non-exempt employee? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/73 "2014-04-11T19:45:23Z")
I started as a Programmer I and didn’t cover call. I got promoted to Programmer III and took call on a rotating schedule. Then I moved into a Systems Analyst position and assigned to manage the payroll/hr system. Unfortunately I never got a programmer assigned to work under me. I found myself covering call 24/7. Even arranging a vacation was tough because I had to get another Systems Analyst to cover for me. That’s old history. Moving into computer support opened up a whole new field for me. Setting up the dept’s file server, email server, and supporting the staff pc’s. I’d never go back to a job programming full time. I still code about 30% of the time which is plenty. I do have sympathy for office workers today that are carrying smartphones and constantly harassed with work emails and texts. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/74 "2014-04-11T19:56:34Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Basically, this branch wanted to create a new work mode : highly skilled employees (engineers, consultants and the like) working for clients outside of the direct control of their employer would be paid by the day, without weekly limits to the number of hours worked, overtime, etc… (that might be common in the US from what I read here, but this isn’t in France. Typically, only very high level managers are exempt of overtime and such things). This employer federation signed an agreement with a couple of unions. Someone went to court, and courts vacated the whole agreement on the basis that it granted too much leeway to employers and could result in seriously abusive work schedules. Since no one else has responded to this, I will. I’ve never heard of daily pay in the US. It is either hourly, with overtime, or salaried, often without overtime, and that is for any professional type of employee, like engineers, not limited to high level managers. I’ve seen cases where having to work on a Saturday gets you comp time, working 10 - 11 hours a day, never. My daughter lives and works in Germany, so she gets the benefit of decent vacation. She does not appear to have to handle calls outside of work hours. Lots of people in the US seem to think that people in Europe never get anything done with a decent schedule. Here layoffs has meant that those left have had to pick up the slack by working more, and it has become the new normal. BTW I understand that in France everything shuts down for August. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/75 "2014-04-11T20:25:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Since no one else has responded to this, I will. I’ve never heard of daily pay in the US. It is either hourly, with overtime, or salaried, often without overtime, and that is for any professional type of employee, like engineers, not limited to high level managers. I’ve seen cases where having to work on a Saturday gets you comp time, working 10 - 11 hours a day, never. > My daughter lives and works in Germany, so she gets the benefit of decent vacation. She does not appear to have to handle calls outside of work hours. > Lots of people in the US seem to think that people in Europe never get anything done with a decent schedule. Here layoffs has meant that those left have had to pick up the slack by working more, and it has become the new normal. > > BTW I understand that in France everything shuts down for August. Is that correct? It’s not news that the US is waaay out there in terms of employer intrusion into work/life balance. I heard a North African wife chide her husband a while back with ‘don’t work like an American’. LOL - it was in London but nonetheless a family from the developing world … ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/76 "2014-04-11T21:23:33Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I’m very much in favor of employers allowing a decent work/life balance, and agree that in too many jobs that balance is completely out of whack. But an actual law _banning_ work e-mails after 6 strikes me as draconian overkill. But not unenforceable given NSA data collection. Delta Charlie, we have an after-hours EO communication, send in SWAT. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/77 "2014-04-11T22:00:35Z")
Instead of banning work emails, they should ban reading work emails after 6pm. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/78 "2014-04-12T00:59:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, fail to see how sending someone an email after 6 PM constitutes “unduly hassling” them. Says the guy who _shows up at his employees home_ when he can’t get a hold of them. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/79 "2014-04-12T01:04:48Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s not news that the US is waaay out there in terms of employer intrusion into work/life balance. How true is that? Sure, if you work for an investment bank, law firm, consulting firm or tech startup, the expectation is you work long hours. But you also get paid a lot more money. But when I go to client sites at regular “industry” companies or on several occasions where I’ve worked for those types of companies, I don’t see people killing themselves with overtime. I see them coming in at 9, leaving at 6 and taking an hour for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/80 "2014-04-12T01:37:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > How true is that? Sure, if you work for an investment bank, law firm, consulting firm or tech startup, the expectation is you work long hours. But you also get paid a lot more money. But when I go to client sites at regular “industry” companies or on several occasions where I’ve worked for those types of companies, I don’t see people killing themselves with overtime. I see them coming in at 9, leaving at 6 and taking an hour for lunch. As a prof there is tremendous pressure, under the guise of “customer service” and student retention, to be excessively available to students. I have to force myself to not reply to student emails at 10 or 11 at night, but I often end up doing it, reinforcing the idea that it’s reasonable to expect a response law at night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=5)